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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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The Gen I boxes were suboptimal; quite a compromise. Of course that is not Ken's fault, we simply didn't consider heat when designing the headers. Target demo were race cars. Looks like some oil is dripping on them as well adding to the stink.
To boost heating we have used stainless mesh packed in the exchangers for increased surface area. Works well.
The short tube headers like FS have tiny exchangers and also can't produce near the heat as OEM. I tell all the Canadian folks to not even bother with headers unless they only run two months a year or have electric bloomers.

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-20-2013, 06:46 PM
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Ken, exhaust gas into the car? Thats knda scary!
The heat on my B&B works fine, but it's Texas and i don't really need it.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:04 PM
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Yeah the heat from my B&B headers is extremely hot. It will cook my feet and get too hot in the car if I don't turn it down when it's around 45 to 50 degrees out at night. The B&B heat exchanger boxes are about twice the thickness of Fabspeed heat exchangers and thats probably why.
Old 02-21-2013, 01:10 PM
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I have the older Fabspeeds. The heat from them will chase you out of the car if the footwell blowers kick on. I don't drive in the winter much, but I have been defrosted and warm up hear on a 30 F day with them.
Old 02-21-2013, 02:51 PM
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You could cook a small chicken in the cab with my GHL's. Then I rebuilt with Mahl fully finned barrels. Not so good now!
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87 930 GHL/Rarlyl8/Garretson/GT3582R/1 Bar/Wevo shift, mounts/Meth inj/LM-2/Custom Fuchs/Carrera intake manifold/Xtreme Carrera heads P&P/3.4/DR 993SS cams/ Mahl/Pauter/JE/Niresist/ARP/twin COP/8.25:1/KEP stage 2/twin tials/close 2,3,4th. MS3Pro Evo 500+ HP, BTSOMP Dyno
Old 02-21-2013, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Here's a picture of the Gen III boxes:


I would not build heat boxes to extend too close to pipe joint. When/once they leak a bit, with this setup exhaust gases are directly going inside the box and you do not need much to get smell inside the car.

And as someone said, be careful with carbon monoxide. It may not be scary until you have seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxSZg2tFX_U

In short: exhaust system leaked (it does not even sound like that) and the guy get CO into his car and this disables him to THINK or control himself, it looks to be like nerve gas. Only wonder saved him: he was participating controlled event where some safety crew was and luckily they understood finally to break the class and give first aid. VERY SCARY and this can happen to anyone. I just imagine if this happens on road where people do not realize what's going on so none will be able help.
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Kind regards, Harri

964 C4 1992, 930 "RS3.0 looker", Carrera 3.0 1976
911 2.4E 1972 (to be 2.4S+ spec race car), 911 2.2T 1967

Last edited by rs27carrera; 02-21-2013 at 04:33 PM.. Reason: added some information
Old 02-21-2013, 04:20 PM
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I've gone native
 
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Good point, from a liability/safety standpoint, I would not even offer them for sale/trade with those particular heat boxes, just discard them.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:09 PM
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Scary video

This could offer some degrees of safety:
CO Detectors from Aircraft Spruce
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:13 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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My boxes are removeable and should be if you think there is a problem.
Now imagine cracked 304 S/S header pipes inside of weled up boxes like others offer ...
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-21-2013, 06:25 PM
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Wow- that carbon monoxide video may explain my driving behavior behind the wheel of this thing.


As suggested above, I now can't in good conscience let them go with the heat boxes. I don't have any hard data on how much or how little it really is. I guess I could throw one of the house CO detectors and see if goes off.

Brian, two things (for me or the next guy):
1.) Is there any harm in welding the collector onto the three pipes at this point? This is where the leaks are, and if they were welded they wouldn't leak. Do you find that the joints continue to flex in and out for each heat cycle? I recall you saying the springs were unnecessary after a few cycles, so maybe after an intial set they can be welded where they are?
2.) Is there any reason the later boxes wouldn't fit on these headers? I've already buzzed off the spring hooks that were under the boxes for a tighter fit.
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Ken
1986 930, 1969 Mach1, 2003 540 Sport, 2016 R1200RS
Old 02-21-2013, 06:47 PM
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To Brian's point i had the welded cheap crap and they leaked CO into the cabin, luckily mine was a bad leak so i could smell it. The CO monitors that we checked to confirm my leak even went off in a Boxster so not sure how reliable they are. The only way to confirm is with a calibrated sniffer.
I am still waiting for an asian company to advise how they will support , nearly 2 months now with nothing. Buyers beware. Quality comes at a price.
Old 02-22-2013, 12:09 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Ken,
No and yes.
We found after a few heat cycles the pipes settle out and swell shut. Yours must have a fitting just loose enough to allow a bit of exhaust to escape when under boost. So yes they can be welded up. We are looking at doing that as the next generational step. We use 321 so it won't crack easy like 304 when under stress. Key is to have a perfect fixture so the pipes mount to the engine in a relaxed state. Every 930 is a little different so this can be tricky. The slip joints must remain in the secondaries as turbo positioning is all over the place in these cars, especially when fitting K27 or other types.
The later boxes will fit your headers however there was batch-to-batch variation which is why we are filling backorders by the batch; to get the best fit.
If you want optimal heat the collectors will be welded up as well as the boxes. With law suit happy America I'm not too sure I want to seal the boxes.
I had a carbon monoxide scare of my own years ago and respect what you all are saying about the silent killer. The testers are junk and I don't trust them. You do get a warning and should heed it. That warning simply is being tired when you know you should not. If that happens in your car or home get into fresh air immediately.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 02-22-2013, 04:06 AM
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I have a friend that would be interested. Call him up 310.460.6646 ask for Joubin
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:35 AM
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PM sent!
Old 02-22-2013, 11:22 AM
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header trade

I have a set of B&B headers with heat and less then 3000 miles, I would be very interested in a trade as I live on Hilton Head Island, SC and don't need the heat.
Further, I have the stock turbo and intercooler, hood, bumpers, A/C system complete, a GT Racing fiberglass engine lid with ducktail and grill (all from the same white 87 930).
You can reach me at 843 689 2828.
Thanks, Jerry
Old 05-19-2013, 04:04 AM
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Old 05-22-2013, 08:24 AM
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Thanks to the thread bump yesterday, I've got another flurry of PMs with some respectable offers (thank you). After considering my options and my future plans for a 475-500HP Garrett /EFI build, I landed on keeping these to avoid boost creep issues, getting the collectors welded for safety and dealing with the marginal heat at the bookends of the Northeast driving season.

At present, with the heat off, the leaking collectors / CO concerns are not the issue they were in February. The opposite, in fact... today was 84* and I was enjoying my upgraded Griffiths A/C system.
I've PM'd Ben in the hopes that he can handle the welding over the winter. I wouldn't know where to look locally for someone to duplicate the exquisite welds on the rest of the system, and I don't want any loose slag/FOD issues afterwards.
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1986 930, 1969 Mach1, 2003 540 Sport, 2016 R1200RS
Old 05-22-2013, 03:19 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Ken, for 500HP you will need 1.63" primary tubes. We have those plug and play with your exisiting secondaries (as seen in the picture in post #26 with the Gen III heater boxes). Shoot me an email, I'll take your 1.5" primaries and heater box trade-in so we can get you into the Gen III boxes.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-22-2013, 08:11 PM
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Brian , I just got the 934 ZORK tube and waste gate pipe. real nice job Thanks.. But are you saying there is a certain power level that you must reach before you use the 1.63 primarys and stay with the 1.5 if below .
Old 06-17-2013, 05:37 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Not necessarily, it depends on which engine you have and consideration for future mods. Smaller primaries increase velocity but can hinder output at high boost levels or when using big turbos.

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-17-2013, 06:30 PM
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