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quick thoughts on kkk vs garrett turbo?

I'm thinking of replacing my K27 HF and getting into a Garrett, heard a lot of good about the GT series, whats a good suggestion for model, size and trim? Difference in performance? And a good place to purchase?
3.3
heads and intake ported to 36mm
964 cams
fuel head mod and wur enrichment
twin plug
1 bar
GHL headers

Thanks
Tom Slivan

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82 930 Pearl White 3.3 964 cams, K27 HF, Kokeln, fuel enriched, IA fuel head mod, wur mod, crankfire, 2X plug, Aase worked heads. 1bar, GHL, zork, 23/33 bars, low, loud
Old 04-18-2013, 11:26 AM
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Tom,
Not a lot of apples to apples data out there on a CIS build. For what it is worth, I just installed a Bisimoto turbonetics billet 6162 with a .77 ar turbine housing on my 1986 930. Supposedly a hair smaller than the GT3582R but has the billet wheel and ceramic bearing so SHOULD survive. Mods include SC cams, headers, full width intercooler, tial wastegate, RARLYL8 muffler, Leask WUR. Pretty much bolt on stuff. Car is at TurboKraft getting custom intercooler work and some odds and ends and should be dyno tuned within 2-3 weeks. I will post real numbers then for the boys...
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:16 PM
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Neither of them: KKK is ancient tech even with newer modifications, only some late designs wth billet wheels are good but these come starting from K31 (good for ~700hp, I have used one of those on audi 20V 2.2T engine, with #16 hotside).

For up to 600 hp there is basically no competition when compared to Holset HX40 Super. Even though in US mostly DSM guys are using them, in Europe Garret GT and GTX series are long history with their less than stellar reliability and high price, not tomention no advance on the ball-bearing thing (split pulse HX40 spools faster and makesmuchmore power than GT3582R 0.82 turbine on 944 3.0 16v engine).

BorgWarner EFR series is good but costs a lot and has some unnecessary extras like integrated bypass valves etc.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raceboy View Post
For up to 600 hp there is basically no competition when compared to Holset HX40 Super..
This is one I'm not familiar with. So for most of us with only slightly modified 930's, are you saying this is a good alternative to the outdated K27's and such that we're using? Price, durability, and performance comparable to the KKK? Are these simple direct bolt-ons, or if not then what level of modification is needed to get them to fit?
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:38 PM
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Quick thought...

With the rest of the modifications you've done a Garret GT35R would spool up faster and make alot more torque and horsepower than the obsolete old K27 7200 HF with it's oversize & overweight Holset compressor wheel you have now could ever dream of.
Old 04-18-2013, 03:43 PM
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So I googled the Holset. Wow! Could it be true? More hp potential and quicker spool over the GT35R?

Gonna look into more.

So Raceboy, if I have a T4 flange, what size Holset do I use up to 600 fwhp???
Old 04-18-2013, 04:11 PM
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The Holset is a great turbo, but recognize that the "split pulse" is a twin scroll turbine housing and its benefits will not be seen on the standard t3 headers or original exhaust. If going custom or running a set of Brian's headers it becomes a viable option....
Old 04-18-2013, 04:37 PM
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What type of performance are you expecting out of a new turbo?
The "outdated" KKK/BW K27 series turbos do a fine job on the 930 with standard mods and CIS. They are made for use with the 930 oil system, have a bullet proof bearing housing, and put out good power without excessive lag. The K27HF you have should yeild a solid 400WHP with standard mods at 1.0bar boost. Threshold should be ~1700rpm and 1.0bar should be in by 2800rpm. No "modern" turbo will do significantly better when bolted onto a T3 flange. If you wish to change/modify the headers, bracketry, muffler inlet, and oiling system anything can be used. Before doing any of that a clear vision of your goals is required. Could be other areas can be improved that will yield the desired results.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:30 PM
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I've got a K27HFS and a K27 7006 and I've switched back and forth between them.
The boost threshold of the HFS is only about 300 rpm lower than the 7006 and it is about 3000 rpms. Boost threshold is no where near as low as you say and I know that for fact because I have one. I also have B&B headers and 964 cams with ignition timing advanced more than stock that pulls back to a hair above stock when on boost

Once your up around 5000 rpms on up the 7006 blows the doors off the HFS because it has a much larger hot side housing and turbine wheel that lets the engine breath out better or get rid of the exhaust gasses easier than the HFS and that makes alot more horsepower with the same boost level.

THe HFS is a lousy design and the 7006 is a much better and more effficiant turbo... period. The 7006 is the most durable K27 made.
I know that because I own and have driven with both of them and my HFS was rebuilt by durabilt with a 360 degree thrust bearing and it is much better now than when the origonal builder put it together with a 270 degree thrust bearing and eroded bearing housing.
Old 04-18-2013, 07:45 PM
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I did have a chance to speak with Chris at turbokraft and he basically stated a GT3582 would offer fuller low end response which wouldn't run out of steam as the cams came into power, new technology versus heavily modified old tech. I suspect its analogous to heavily modding 30 yr old cis versus efi. I did a quick search on the Holset turbo but it looks to be a little more fit work than I'm interested in and limited information with fittment to our cars, looking for something with a little more of a track record. I'll have to check boost threshold for my hf, make no mistake it does make good power, Im just hoping for something with a little more, broader power under the curve.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:20 PM
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I know you've had issues with the UMW K27HF series Jim. I've installed and bunch of K27HF(S) turbos over the years. They absolutely are capable of reaching 1bar before 3000rpm when the engine is set up efficiently. We had an HFS boosting at 2600rpm on one engine. Many things affect boost threshold and you must compare apples to apples, meaning test different turbos on the same engine and optimise that engine. Most folks haven't done that. I no longer use the HF(S) turbos but that has nothing to do with their performance. The K27-7200 remains a fantastic true bolt-on upgrade for the mid-level 930 build. Not big enough for this thread's application.
If you're looking to shed that last 300rpm of boost threshold then go split plenum GT35. The top end can only pick up so far before serious CIS mods are needed. The HF(S) does leave some power and threshold on the table when compared to a custom Garrett as the K27 does not have all the housing size options.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:40 PM
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I have bought my HX40 Super turbos here: KKD Motorsport

New unit costs 796€.

Here's a comparison dynosheet of HX40 vs GT3076R: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y153/H22HATCH/Gt30vsHx40rpm-1.jpg
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:19 PM
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Any place to get a HX40 super here in the USA? Saw a bunch of knock offs on e bay but not the real 7 blade super
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
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Any place to get a HX40 super here in the USA? Saw a bunch of knock offs on e bay but not the real 7 blade super
I have no idea about that. But I'm sure Kalle (the guy behind the business) is willing to ship to US and he is a stand up guy when it comes to support.
Also, price is decent. You can get HX40's in ebay for ~400$ sometimes even new but they are not Super.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:10 AM
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I question if those are legit on eBay?
Old 04-19-2013, 10:15 AM
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I think the ones i saw on e bay were knock offs or rebuilt by who knows.
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raceboy View Post
I have bought my HX40 Super turbos here: KKD Motorsport

New unit costs 796.

Here's a comparison dynosheet of HX40 vs GT3076R: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y153/H22HATCH/Gt30vsHx40rpm-1.jpg
Yes, but do you have data for the HX40 super vs. GT3582R, not the smaller GT3076R?
Old 04-19-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsrfan View Post
Tom,
Not a lot of apples to apples data out there on a CIS build. For what it is worth, I just installed a Bisimoto turbonetics billet 6162 with a .77 ar turbine housing on my 1986 930. Supposedly a hair smaller than the GT3582R but has the billet wheel and ceramic bearing so SHOULD survive. Mods include SC cams, headers, full width intercooler, tial wastegate, RARLYL8 muffler, Leask WUR. Pretty much bolt on stuff. Car is at TurboKraft getting custom intercooler work and some odds and ends and should be dyno tuned within 2-3 weeks. I will post real numbers then for the boys...
Thank you for sharing. We are looking forward to hearing about your project once completed and tuned!



Tom, I would be more than happy to assist you with a properly sized custom Turbonetics turbocharger for your project. Turbonetics newly designed HPC billet aluminum compressor wheels greatly outflow previous cast counterparts and will allow a superior turbo response. Not to mention the oil cooled ceramic ball bearing center housing are incredibly reliable and Turbonetics offers the best warranty in the industry.

With so many A/R housing, compressor/exhaust wheels, and compressor covers to choose from, it can be a daunting task to choose the proper turbo for a project. I will PM you and we can further discuss your project. Thanks.

- Julio A. Bisimoto Tech.

Last edited by BisimotoJulio; 04-19-2013 at 04:57 PM..
Old 04-19-2013, 12:43 PM
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http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=239425
Old 04-19-2013, 06:27 PM
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Getting excited about this Holset turbo. I'm willing to go to a T3 if it has no (or much) compromise on top end hp. Plenty of huge hp numbers from the T3's from what I've read so far.

Hmmm

Old 04-20-2013, 02:36 PM
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