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Help with Motronic controlled 3.3 turbo

Hello,

I purchased my 88 turbo in Florida in December and had it shipped to me in the PNW. Beautiful car and "stage 3" performance mods. I wanted to tap into the knowledge base here to answer some questions. What I know is a 88 turbo block with single plug heads, 964 cams, 3.2 Carrera intake and fuel rails with 944 injectors. All controlled by a Motronic system. I cannot identify the Garrett turbo so will be removing the bumper to further id. I am attaching a pic with the full bay intercooler off for a visual. My question is how the Motronic was mapped for the turbo application since it was not used in turbo applications until 1996, correct? Is it likely a custom chip or can one map the system using an external device. I am going to start adding some additional performance mods and am just trying to understand what my baseline is. What is the upper limit of HP potential with the 964 cams and fuel and ignition system in place? I am a bit green on turbo systems but am learning fast so appreciate comments.


Old 04-22-2013, 12:01 PM
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This is most likely a Protomotive build. Todd at protomotive can answer your questions and is probably familar with the garrett turbo specced on the car as well... If a stage 3 protomotive build, rear wheel horsepower should be in the low to mid 500s...

Protomotive Turbosystems Description - 911
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:39 PM
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^ Ditto
Old 04-22-2013, 04:10 PM
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Looks like Protomotive to me. As to HP claims, I don't think any of their shops own a dyno. FYI. Best of luck with it!
Old 04-22-2013, 04:35 PM
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Actually my question was more directed to the use of Motronic in performance builds for the 930. The original stage 3 work was done if Florida and not be protomotive. Gulf performance in FL did the balance of the work but that has been a bit in the past.
Old 04-22-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailwind22 View Post
Hello,

My question is how the Motronic was mapped for the turbo application since it was not used in turbo applications until 1996, correct? Is it likely a custom chip or can one map the system using an external device.
Are you sure the car is a 930 not a turboed Carerra? I haven't seen people add motronic to 930s... If it is stage 3 Protomotive it should have some serious power, I think stage 3 for them was something like 500 maybe 600hp at the crank. Which was a 3.2 with 3.3 pistons and cylinders... The 944 Turbo used Motronic too.

Protomotive would also upgrade the ECU with map sensing but yours is still using the AFM, if you're planing on mods, that should be your first area, the AFM is terrible for boost. And yes it is usually a chip with their own fuel pressure regulator which will be hidden behind the intake on the far left. From memory the unit is black replacing the factory bronze coloured unit, you will see a little clear piece of tubing coming out of it if it's the Protomotive version. Do you have a pic of the intercooler?
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:01 PM
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Looking at the pic again, looks like it has a cab engine and the car is a coupe from the visible rain guards and rear window, engine swap at some stage, do you know what gear box it has?
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:05 PM
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If it has 944 injectors (even 944 Turbo ones) they are very small (~440 cc maximum) for anything over 400hp.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:30 PM
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I am sure 944 Turbo injectors are used in stage 3, I knew someone running stage 3, the car was very fast too.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:23 PM
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In that case the fuel pressure has to be bumped and using more than 4bar base pressure to these old EV1 style injectors is pointless (at boost add amount of boost to the base pressure, @1 bar boost, fuel injectors work at 5 bars).
Still at 4 bar base pressure the max hp from 6cyl car is ~500hp and that is with 100% duty cycle. BSFC is also on the higher side in these old air cooled 2valvers so...

There are plenty of newer and better injectors that give better atomization, response time and are controllable with higher pressures.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence88mph View Post
Are you sure the car is a 930 not a turboed Carerra? I haven't seen people add motronic to 930s... If it is stage 3 Protomotive it should have some serious power, I think stage 3 for them was something like 500 maybe 600hp at the crank. Which was a 3.2 with 3.3 pistons and cylinders... The 944 Turbo used Motronic too.

Protomotive would also upgrade the ECU with map sensing but yours is still using the AFM, if you're planing on mods, that should be your first area, the AFM is terrible for boost. And yes it is usually a chip with their own fuel pressure regulator which will be hidden behind the intake on the far left. From memory the unit is black replacing the factory bronze coloured unit, you will see a little clear piece of tubing coming out of it if it's the Protomotive version. Do you have a pic of the intercooler?
Again, I am almost 100% sure that Protomotive did not do the work, but the term Stage III was used. The bulk of the mods were done back in the early 2000s and the enginge has had about 15,000 miles put on it since then. The only shop that I was able to contact really doesn't remember the details from back then and has not been dependable for calling me back. The car is a 88 930, as is the motor. The addition of a 3.2 Carrerra intake and the Motronic may make one think that it is a 3.2 but the engine code says different. Here is a pic of the intercooler:



Old 04-23-2013, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailwind22 View Post
Again, I am almost 100% sure that Protomotive did not do the work, but the term Stage III was used. The bulk of the mods were done back in the early 2000s and the enginge has had about 15,000 miles put on it since then. The only shop that I was able to contact really doesn't remember the details from back then and has not been dependable for calling me back. The car is a 88 930, as is the motor. The addition of a 3.2 Carrerra intake and the Motronic may make one think that it is a 3.2 but the engine code says different. Here is a pic of the intercooler:
The thing that has some people wondering about your engine/car combination is the fact that it has a cabriolet engine damper (shock) on it. You can see it to the left-front of the fan in one of your pictures.
Old 04-23-2013, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
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The thing that has some people wondering about your engine/car combination is the fact that it has a cabriolet engine damper (shock) on it. You can see it to the left-front of the fan in one of your pictures.
Thanks for pointing that out. I obviously noticed the damper but did not think too much beyond that. My former 930 and current 89 Carrera, of course, do not have it. Could someone have installed that for addition vibration control eventhough the motor is in a coupe?
Old 04-23-2013, 08:14 AM
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One more point, your engine has a carrera distributor cap and leads, so I would presume it has a carrera distributor. A carrera distributor needs a carrera crank as the distributor gear is different. The shroud looks black too which is a 3.2 color, 930s are red.

If I was a betting man, I would stick it my 3.2 Carrera Cab engine swap with turbo conversion, possibly 3.3 Ps and Cs... It's the path of least resistance. You also know all Carreras have 930xxxx case stampings right?
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:08 AM
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It does have the 930 designation in the code. Interesting on the distributor.
Old 04-24-2013, 05:34 AM
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If you are still looking for advice, I would again reiterate talking to Todd at Protomotive. As far as I know, Todd is the only person who has cracked the motronic code with respect to turbo applications and IS the "go to" guy when a new chip is needed on a motronic turbo build. If he or one of his affiliated shops (Proto Sport, ProtoTech) did not build the car, he may still offer valuable input on the capabilities of the engine in its present form or where modifications need to be made to get you to where you want to be...
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:08 AM
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After further digging and sourcing information it was Proto Tech in FL that did the original mods. Yes, they seem to be an extension of Proto Motive so I will converse with them. Some experts feel that the Motronic lacks the adjustability to deal with 91 octane found here in the PNW so that is a concern right now.
Old 04-25-2013, 06:30 AM
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This would be a very good solution for you, and really anyone running motronic:

Canems Engine Management Solutions

Plug and play programmable replacement.
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Old 04-25-2013, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence88mph View Post
This would be a very good solution for you, and really anyone running motronic:

Canems Engine Management Solutions

Plug and play programmable replacement.
Hmm, this is interesting. Do you have any first hand experience or know a car with the system?
Old 04-26-2013, 05:35 AM
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Neither, I wish to though, I just haven't had the time.

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:27 PM
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