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Question More oil questions, ZDDP

I read an interesting thread on the 996 site about oil and the flow rates when cold or first start up in the morning. It basically said that no oil provides proper lubrication when cold, 75* F outside temp, even 0W-XX synthetic doesn't flow enough. Flow = lubrication, pressure does not = lubrication. This article was for water cooled engines but it's made me re-think the oil that I'm using in the 87 930 (all my cars for that matter). Presently I use Swepco 15W-40 and I'm thinking of sticking to the dino oil because of the high ZDDP count but going to a 0W-30. The ZDDP count in the Swepco is high (that's why I use this oil instead of synthetic) and I've often wondered what the ZDDP actually does and if a switch to a synthetic blend, 0W-30 with less ZDDP will really make that much of a difference on long term engine wear? What other things would be effected by a lower ZDDP count? Does synthetic oil somehow cover for the lower ZDDP count? The article made a lot of sense, stuff like the major wear on your engine is at cold start up and that the first number in a blended oil is how the oil acts, it's ability to flow, on cold start up. The numbers for flow on cold start up between 0W-30 & 10W-30 are huge, so much so that I'll never put anything other than a 0W-XX oil in any of my cars. Flowing oil is measured in centiStokes, cS, and your engine and oil are designed to have a 10cS flow at 212*F. At 75*F 10W-30 has a flow of 100cS, 0W-30 has a flow of 40cS but both flow @ 10cS when @ operating temp., by comparison a straight 30W oil has a flow of 250cS @ 75*F but still has a flow of 10cS @ 212*F. That's why I'm switchin to a zero blend oil and I'd prefer a synthetic oil but the ZDDP has me confused, can any body set me straight on this.
Finn

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Old 05-25-2013, 08:04 PM
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No offence but 0w30 is a terrible choice of oil for an air cooled engine as it is much too thin for the oil temperatures that these engines run at - cold start-up flow becomes a secondary concern when you do not have adequate hot temp viscosity. Food for thought - you won't find one air cooled aircraft engine in the entire world that is running a 0 weight oil.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-25-2013 at 09:09 PM..
Old 05-25-2013, 08:59 PM
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Funny how almost all the new cars these days are going with 0w/? oil. Part of it is driven by increased federal pressure to increase mpg (less viscous oil) but in order to run those thin oils I would guess that the engines have been engineered with bearing tolerances and such commensurate with the required oils. My FJ Cruiser takes 0w/20 synthetic but being water cooled, it doesn't get above 185 degrees.

ZDDP...my understanding is that it provides some sort of molecular coating on wear surfaces to reduce the friction. Especially important for cam lobes and rocker surfaces in our cars. The only reason not to use it would be if you're running with a catalytic converter. I guess the zinc in ZDDP will toast the platinum in your converter.
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:26 AM
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Ronnie
No offence taken, and 0w40 might be a better choice but this article says different on the other points you mention. Again this article was about oil, in water cooled engines and they only gave cS #'s @ 3 temps., 75*, 212* and 302*F but the oil will act the same at the given temp. regardless of the engine cooling, and they didn't cover every different viscosity but 10w30, 0w30, up to 10w40 all have the same cS #'s @212* and all of the oils are too thick at start up and are all to thin at 302*. They did compare 20w50 oil and it was 250cS at 75* (too thick), 20cS @ 212* (too thick) and 5cS at 302* (too thin), the other oils were at 3cS @ 302*, only oil that's made for these temps (racing oil) will give you the proper 10cS @ 302*F.
I don't know about aircraft engines but they do use specially formulated oils and those engines are rebuilt every 2000 hours or less, there is a limit to cold starts for these engines??, in choppers for sure.
I'm going to try and post a link to this article.
I kinda thought I knew a little bit about oil, turns out most of what I thought was wrong, I think the guy who wrote the article is an oil engineer.
I did find out about ZDDP, in its hayday it was used as a VII, viscosity index improver, all VII's break down over time and use, it was a cheap VII so it was used in higher PPM counts in the old days. Its main advantage was as an antioxidant or corrosion inhibiter and its been almost eliminated from modern oils because of emissions and the damage it does to catalytic converters. Synthetic oil doesn't have VII so it doesn't break down like the dino oils do and as synthetic wears and loses some of its properties it still will maintain its original viscosity, unlike dino oils. I can't remember the PPM count on the ZDDP in the Swepco oil but it's really high compared to other formulas and may be way more than needed, I'm not sure on that but I did read that 0.03% was more than enough for the corrosion inhibition but how that correlates to PPM I don't know.
Finn
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:39 AM
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It would definitely be interesting to look into the article writer's credentials.

How an oil performs in labaratory testing situations is likely quite different to how it performs in the real world. The writer states that such and such oil is too thick at a given temp, but I wonder "says who"? I wonder how the "too thick" standard was determined (example - did the writer compare engine wear found in thick 'v' thin weight oil startup in multiple engines?) . . .

Regarless, this is definitely an interesting subject.

Regarding ZDDP: I endurance raced a 2001 Ducati 748R for many years - using Mobil 1 synthetic, the rocker arms shed their chrome coating very quickly (resulting in cam damage) and when a switch was made to Motul 300V the problem stopped. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I know that the Motul has much more ZDDP than Mobil 1. No way did the chrome coating improve during that time, as I would use rocker arms ordered from the same batch and Ducati flat out did not give a shat about the problem (they just started pricing replacement rocker arms very cheaply).

Also, the oil was very heavy (15w50) and no wear associated with the thick oil was ever noted on any of the engine components (often raced in fairly cool weather in February and March - though nothing to compare to Canada).

Granted, this is one engine and one person's experience.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-26-2013 at 12:05 PM..
Old 05-26-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
Funny how almost all the new cars these days are going with 0w/? oil. Part of it is driven by increased federal pressure to increase mpg (less viscous oil) but in order to run those thin oils I would guess that the engines have been engineered with bearing tolerances and such commensurate with the required oils. My FJ Cruiser takes 0w/20 synthetic but being water cooled, it doesn't get above 185 degrees.

ZDDP...my understanding is that it provides some sort of molecular coating on wear surfaces to reduce the friction. Especially important for cam lobes and rocker surfaces in our cars. The only reason not to use it would be if you're running with a catalytic converter. I guess the zinc in ZDDP will toast the platinum in your converter.
Mark
I agree about the 0wXX oil in the new cars but I think its more for the lower cS numbers at cold start. I think that your oil will be hotter than your coolant.
After what I've read about the ZDDP I'm not sure about the coating thing but it is bad for the converter. SM oils have 0.08% ZDP, seems like more than enough. More on this below.
Finn
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:53 AM
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One other thing - as Mark mentioned, the automakers shift to 0 weight oils is due to an attempt to meet governmental fuel economy and emissions regulations and not because it has increased engine longevity. This is based on conversations with a friend of mine that is a long time GM engineer.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-26-2013 at 11:12 AM..
Old 05-26-2013, 11:10 AM
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This is an additional oil viscosity vactoid - for the past few years, Ducati dealer-preps their superbikes with a light weight oil in order to comply with various countries' emissions requirements for motorcycles, but Ducati Corse then tells competitors to switch to a 20w50 oil before using their equiptment due to the superior protection offered by that weight oil.

Again, perhaps this is apples to oranges regarding a competition bike and a road use car (and the bike engine is water cooled, too) but this directive is based on Ducati's rich racing history (not just work done in a lab setting). Of course, Ducati is not the world authority on oil and there are many ways to skin a cat, but this is something to consider when thinking about real world oil performance . . .
Old 05-26-2013, 11:28 AM
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Ronnie
Was the Motul 300V a synthetic oil or dino? Is it a racing oil?
I think the author is pretty well informed, I'm posting a link.
Finn
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Old 05-26-2013, 11:53 AM
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Motul 300V is a sythetic, esther based, motorcycle racing oil. Several of the engine builders on this site say that if cost is no consideration (it is very expensive) it is the best out there for high performance engines (including air cooled). I used it based on a recommendation from a builder that helped me with my endurance bike. BTW, I meant 15w50 in my earlier post.

Here it is on the Motul site. Note that they have lighter oils but they are marked for "maximum horspower" due to the lower levels of friction loss and such (ie; sprint bikes where the need for power outweighs longevity)-

Motul - All Products - 300V 4T Factory Line 15W50
Old 05-26-2013, 12:02 PM
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Here's the link
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

I was hoping that was going to come up as a clickable link but that is the address, it's titled
Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas, its well worth the time to read this, its long but oil is all spelled out in layman's terms. I found it very informative, stuff like cavitation (I deal with this at work) never entered my mind when I thought of oil. If you go to the last couple of pages, under "Research Paper Reviews" you will see lots of studies and excepts from them relating to this thread, there's one "Development of the Sequence III G Engine Oil Certification Test, Clark et al:" that relates to the ZDP levels and SM oils. I have to take a look at the classifications again to see if I can find the same properties as SM in a synthetic.
Finn
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:29 PM
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The link did come out clickable, check it out. Let me know if your idea of oil is different after reading that.
Finn

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