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Forced Induction Junkie
 
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+1
Do not use motorcycle oils intended for wet-clutch environments. However, V-Twin Mobil 1 is not intended for wet clutch environments.

In short: V-Twin M1 in 911's - Good idea

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Dave
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Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 06-18-2013, 02:12 PM
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Oil threads are great....!
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFD View Post
Oil threads are great....!
+1 on that!! BTW: I use Mobil 1 V-twin and purchase online by the case...
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LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 06-19-2013, 04:43 PM
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I use 3-in-1 oil with a teaspoon of pumice per oil change. It keeps all the bearings squeaky clean.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mooney265 View Post
+1 on that!! BTW: I use Mobil 1 V-twin and purchase online by the case...
Where do you order it from and how much.

Pep boys local wants $9.99 per quart!

Ouch.
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by fredmeister View Post
Where do you order it from and how much.

Pep boys local wants $9.99 per quart!

Ouch.
Buy it all!
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Old 06-20-2013, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by WERK I View Post
+1
Do not use motorcycle oils intended for wet-clutch environments. However, V-Twin Mobil 1 is not intended for wet clutch environments.

In short: V-Twin M1 in 911's - Good idea
I'm wondering what you are basing this on? Many an engine builder (including some respected ones that post on Pelican) say that Motul 300V 4T is the best oil that money can buy and it is advertised as suitable for both wet and dry clutch motorcycles . . . I experienced much better rocker arm protection with the Motul than with 15w50 Mobil 1 (dry clutch, Ducati Superbike used for endurance racing), however, it was not the v-twin Mobil version.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 06-20-2013 at 10:03 PM..
Old 06-20-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
. . . I experienced much better rocker arm protection with the Motul than with 15w50 Mobil 1 (dry clutch, Ducati Superbike used for endurance racing)
That's because of the JASO MA spec mainly higher shear stability
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsxrken View Post
One of the tiresome things about "oil threads", as Mark H alluded to, is how much opinion and half- assed tech is thrown around in them and how few conclusions can be drawn from them. Who the hell knows if running brand X for 3,500 miles led to accelerated wear, when no one is measuring anything.
I hope this thread is slightly different. There's a school of thought that says run whatever you want, just change it regularly. I don't buy that anymore. I'm a long time 930 owner who knows my car well, and empirically it started running hotter and with more pressure particularly when cold with Brad Penn. I went back to the M1 and temp and pressure is back to how it used to be. I figured I'd post my finding.
API & ASTM have strict testing methods and there are lots of engineer's measuring parts for wear. Your wrong, you couldn't be more wrong even if your name was Mr. Wrong and you were the Mayor of Wrongville. Saying that "no one is measuring anything" is very far from the truth.
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Old 06-21-2013, 07:43 AM
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LOL! Has my wife hacked your user name?
I've been wrong before. I'm sure it'll happen again.

Quote:

Quote de gsxrken



One of the tiresome things about "oil threads", as Mark H alluded to, is how much opinion and half- assed tech is thrown around in them and how few conclusions can be drawn from them. Who the hell knows if running brand X for 3,500 miles led to accelerated wear, when no one is measuring anything.

I hope this thread is slightly different. There's a school of thought that says run whatever you want, just change it regularly. I don't buy that anymore. I'm a long time 930 owner who knows my car well, and empirically it started running hotter and with more pressure particularly when cold with Brad Penn. I went back to the M1 and temp and pressure is back to how it used to be. I figured I'd post my finding.

API & ASTM have strict testing methods and there are lots of engineer's measuring parts for wear. Your wrong, you couldn't be more wrong even if your name was Mr. Wrong and you were the Mayor of Wrongville. Saying that "no one is measuring anything" is very far from the truth.

Finn
Old 06-21-2013, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
I'm wondering what you are basing this on? Many an engine builder (including some respected ones that post on Pelican) say that Motul 300V 4T is the best oil that money can buy and it is advertised as suitable for both wet and dry clutch motorcycles . . . I experienced much better rocker arm protection with the Motul than with 15w50 Mobil 1 (dry clutch, Ducati Superbike used for endurance racing), however, it was not the v-twin Mobil version.
When purchased my used 916 Ducati while I lived in Boston, I took it to a very respected Ducati tuner in New Hampshire to tweak it a bit. They went through the engine, most importantly, the valve train. As you know the desmo's used chromium valve actuators and had exhibited flaking in their lifespan. Sure enough, I had three that were showing signs of flaking. Ducato covered the actuators under warranty, but while I was there I noticed they were using Redline synthetic exclusively on all desmo's. When I asked why, they told me motor oils had gone under reformulations and that Redline provided the extra protection needed for their racing bikes. The Redline products worked very well on their dry clutch setups.
So, I tried to match up Redline's properties with other synthetics out there and chose M1 V-Twin. The other reason was from the thread on Pelican...the dreaded "Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils" If you have a free day to read

Chose a cycle oil targeted for dry clutch setups, simply because the additional additives used in wet-clutch setups aren't needed and I have no idea what effect they would have on our engines. Redline wasn't chosen simply on cost alone. I have a 13-14qt oil system and V-Twin is expensive enough as it is.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 06-21-2013, 09:00 AM
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....except that the rocker issue was a design/manufacturing issue, not a "use of incorrect oil issue"......
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
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....except that the rocker issue was a design/manufacturing issue, not a "use of incorrect oil issue"......
You are correct - Ducati used rockers on their water cooled engines that had a known problem (the coating flaked off in short order) for many years and did nothing about it other than sell replacement rockers at cut-rate prices (cut-rate pricing began around 2004-2005). However, the point regarding that portion of my previous post was that I struggled for over a year with this problem, in a race environment, until I found that Motul 300v virtually eliminated the wear/flaking. The switch to Motul from Mobil 1 was the only "change" as I was using rockers that I had bought in bulk from Ducati, setting the lash the same, etc.
Old 06-21-2013, 03:02 PM
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Dave - understood.

I have never seen proof that there are additives specific to wet clutches in any oil on the market. This subject has come up many times on message boards and at the track and no one has ever supplied any proof to back-up this myth (at least that I am aware of). Not to mention, these additives, if they exist, would not harm the bearings of non-wet clutch machines since wet-clutch engines use the same bearings and such as any other moder(ish), four stroke, dry clutch engine

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 06-21-2013 at 03:30 PM..
Old 06-21-2013, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CFD View Post
....except that the rocker issue was a design/manufacturing issue, not a "use of incorrect oil issue"......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
You are correct - Ducati used rockers on their water cooled engines that had a known problem (the coating flaked off in short order) for many years and did nothing about it other than sell replacement rockers at cut-rate prices (cut-rate pricing began around 2004-2005). However, the point regarding that portion of my previous post was that I struggled for over a year with this problem, in a race environment, until I found that Motul 300v virtually eliminated the wear/flaking. The switch to Motul from Mobil 1 was the only "change" as I was using rockers that I had bought in bulk from Ducati, setting the lash the same, etc.
Granted, it was a flaw in the manufacturing of the chromium plated actuators....hence the warranty coverage on three of mine. The shop used Redline because they found virtually no wear/scoring/pitting on any of the valve train components under racing conditions.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 06-21-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
Dave - understood.

I have never seen proof that there are additives specific to wet clutches in any oil on the market. This subject has come up many times on message boards and at the track and no one has ever supplied any proof to back-up this myth (at least that I am aware of). Not to mention, these additives, if they exist, would not harm the bearings of non-wet clutch machines since wet-clutch engines use the same bearings and such as any other moder(ish), four stroke, dry clutch engine
Here's an excerpt from Dennis Bachelder of the American Pertroleum Institute....
************************************************** *****
"Higher performance engine oils such as API SJ thru SM will contain some level of friction modifier. While the friction modifier improves fuel economy, it is not compatible with wet clutches used on motorcycles. The friction modifier causes the wet clutch to slip. This is especially true if the motorcycle manufacturer recommends using only engine oils carrying API SF or SG Service Categories.
API recommends following the Original Equipment Manufacturer's (OEMs) oil recommendations. Typically an API SJ through SM engine oil would include some friction modifier. Only if the [motorcycle's] OEM indicates that higher performance engine oils such as API SJ, API SL and API SM it is possible to use these engine oils in these motorcycles."

Regards,
Dennis L. Bachelder
American Petroleum Institute
1220 L Street NW
Washington DC 20005 USA
************************************************** ******
M1 V-Twin is a API SJ class motor oil.
I apologize my previous logic was completely a**-backwards. The wet-clutch systems would be incompatible with SJ oils since there are friction modifiers/additives (low-friction inducing ingredients). In any event there are inherent differences between most motorcycle and automotive motor oils. Can we put the "myth" to bed now?
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Old 06-21-2013, 03:57 PM
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Cat Conver effects from Increased ZDDP

While I like the increased ZDDP of the M1 oils, I haven't heard anything about the deleterious effects on the CatConv. Anybody killing their cats or O2 sensors.

Great stuff and thanks,

Gary Siemion
Old 06-21-2013, 04:33 PM
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I wonder : if you bucketed every response from every oil thread into nodes in a directed graph, how big would the graph need to be?

Maybe its already more than half of the internet but my guess is that it could be pretty concise.
Old 06-21-2013, 05:03 PM
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That's interesting, Dave. I wonder if there are any verified claims out there that wet clutch oils do damage to rod or main bearings?

I raced with the CMRA here in Texas for 10 years, and used many brands/types of oils on many different wet-clutch and dry clutch bikes - never once did I have clutch slippage due to oil. Obviously, I knew many other racers who used every imaginable oil (Motul, Mobil 1, Redline, Repsol, Castrol, Amzoil, Rotella T, Honda branded, Elf, etc.) on a wide variety of bikes and never heard of clutch slippage due to oil choice or bearing failure due to using wet clutch oil in a dry clutch bike (though the subject was theorized on quite a bit). Often these were oils marketed for wet clutch use but just as often they were "car" oils. These are just my personal experiences (no laboratory tests, other than lots of track and dyno time), and I am not an oil expert by any means, but I think the concerns regarding motorcycle verses car oil are overblown based upon my "real world" observations. It is always an interesting subject none the less.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 06-21-2013 at 05:27 PM..
Old 06-21-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook View Post
While I like the increased ZDDP of the M1 oils, I haven't heard anything about the deleterious effects on the CatConv. Anybody killing their cats or O2 sensors.

Great stuff and thanks,

Gary Siemion
That is most likely due to the use of a different grade of zddp which keeps most of the phosphorous in the oil. Which grade? That is a question for the M1 mfr.

Old 06-21-2013, 05:34 PM
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