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1bar's Avatar
 
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Modern turbos for an old 930?

I was wondering if anyone has tried to apply any of the newer generation turbochargers, like the Garret and other models, to an older 930? If you have, what types can be made to work? It is so confusing to try to pick a turbocharger from the catalog...

How about running a twin-turbo arrangement? Two little turbos should spool up faster than those old KKK units, and some don't need oil flow. I've seen several Panamera turbocharger sets on eBay for less than $1000 (for both), but they have the manifold integrated into the hot side - too bad.

I have a '77 930 that I am trying to convert to EFI with a Haltech engine management unit that's several years old. I thought about getting a PI or Woodward programmable controller and writing the ECU function myself, but figured the project will already take too long.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:39 PM
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Brando
 
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I also have a 77 930 engine and the garret gt3076r is a great turbo. Bolts up right, needs to have turbokraft feed lines and drain lines. works great though.
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:26 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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It's silly to not use a modern turbo.
Old 06-28-2013, 05:47 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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I'd like to add one thing. I've heard that non triple-K turbos can't hold up like triple-K's can; that they wear out faster. I find that hard to believe. Maybe the triple-K's last longer, but I doubt it's much longer.

So, if you go with a modern journal bearing turbo, if it were to crap out, it's usually like $50 for rebuild parts.

At the super low boost settings these 930's run, there will never be a fear of compressor wheels bursting.

So, the compressor wheel nor the turbine wheel will ever really wear out only leaving the journal bearings and seals to replace for peanuts.

I guess I just cant understand why would you run a triple-K with the plethora of modern turbos out there that make huge power while spooling quick???

Last edited by Tippy; 06-28-2013 at 06:02 PM..
Old 06-28-2013, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
I'd like to add one thing. I've heard that non triple-K turbos can't hold up like triple-K's can; that they wear out faster. I find that hard to believe. Maybe the triple-K's last longer, but I doubt it's much longer.

So, if you go with a modern journal bearing turbo, if it were to crap out, it's usually like $50 for rebuild parts.

At the super low boost settings these 930's run, there will never be a fear of compressor wheels bursting.

So, the compressor wheel nor the turbine wheel will ever really wear out only leaving the journal bearings and seals to replace for peanuts.

I guess I just cant understand why would you run a triple-K with the plethora of modern turbos out there that make huge power while spooling quick???
Those are all good points, though I wouldn't call 15 psi super low boost.
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:18 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Considering diesels run 50-60 PSI with the same off the shelf turbos as we can easily bolt up to our cars, I'd say that's pretty low.

The import scene too run 30+ PSI regularly.

Imagine the stress the turbo is under to make those numbers. That's all my point was.
Old 06-28-2013, 06:59 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Read up on the Borg Warner's used on other makes. They are fairly cheap and spool like crazy; not to mention make great power.
Old 06-28-2013, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Considering diesels run 50-60 PSI with the same off the shelf turbos as we can easily bolt up to our cars, I'd say that's pretty low.

The import scene too run 30+ PSI regularly.

Imagine the stress the turbo is under to make those numbers. That's all my point was.
Cool, I'm with ya....

We need to make a 930 diesel and push 60 psi. Could be awesome!!!
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:20 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Ditto. I think diesels will be the engine to have in the future until we suppress out the internal combustion engine completely.

Although, a 911 with a pancake-6 diesel wouldn't have the "sound" anymore..... , it'd make easy power I'd imagine and have great MPG's.
Old 06-28-2013, 07:43 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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What do you consider "quick spool"? What power level?
With EFI yes a well thought out exhaust system and specialty turbo could do a nice job spooling fairly quick and making good power.
The K27-7200 does have it's application however and does a fantastic job in that application, which is 275-375WHP builds. They spool as quick as just about anything comparable pretty much bolt on and last 100'000 miles. By the time you get done goofing with and paying for the conversion of your Asian or Mexican turbo the cost is not that far apart.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:14 PM
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I agree with Rarlyl8. I run a modded k26 on my 3.4l euro exhaust. still cis and turn consistant 11.3 sec quarters at 127mph. once i even saw 130.1 mph. roll on performance is smashing so there aint nothin wrong with the ole kkk!
Old 06-29-2013, 03:25 AM
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Andy I would like to hear more about your set up. I too am running good numbers with a Jerry Woods turbo 82/58 ( I think) .Straight pipe, HKS 50 mm WG and still on CIS. Makes about 425 hp at 6k in 3rd on the rollers. The JW turbo is custom built back in 1999 and never used til I got it. It's huge and spools quick and hits super hard. CIS gets a bad rap here I think from tuners who want to sell EFI. Yes I agree EFI is superior especially on 500+ builds and easy to tune with a PC on the dyno but I prefer the CIS AND AT 4 -450 WHP...I'ts all you need in a 930 IMO.
Old 06-29-2013, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuen Werke View Post
Andy I would like to hear more about your set up. I too am running good numbers with a Jerry Woods turbo 82/58 ( I think) .Straight pipe, HKS 50 mm WG and still on CIS. Makes about 425 hp at 6k in 3rd on the rollers. The JW turbo is custom built back in 1999 and never used til I got it. It's huge and spools quick and hits super hard. CIS gets a bad rap here I think from tuners who want to sell EFI. Yes I agree EFI is superior especially on 500+ builds and easy to tune with a PC on the dyno but I prefer the CIS AND AT 4 -450 WHP...I'ts all you need in a 930 IMO.
And I would like to hear more about your set up . Is your engine basically a stock
3.3L engine ( pistons+cylinders) with the mods mentioned above. Do you have a air/fuel ration gauge ?
Thanks
Old 06-29-2013, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
I agree with Rarlyl8. I run a modded k26 on my 3.4l euro exhaust. still cis and turn consistant 11.3 sec quarters at 127mph. once i even saw 130.1 mph. roll on performance is smashing so there aint nothin wrong with the ole kkk!
Please elaborate.

Weight?
Full boost at what RPM?
Fuel?
Boost bar/PSI?
930 or G50 trans?
What slicks?
Launch RPM?
Compressor inducer size?
Turbine exducer size?

Having larger than your standard fare K26 compressor/turbine combos can make a huge difference.

Impressive 1/4 mile results for sure!

Last edited by Tippy; 06-29-2013 at 07:59 PM..
Old 06-29-2013, 06:50 AM
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Good discussion, as long as we stick to a fairly stock 930 - from my perspective.
Old 06-29-2013, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by herman maire View Post
And I would like to hear more about your set up . Is your engine basically a stock
3.3L engine ( pistons+cylinders) with the mods mentioned above. Do you have a air/fuel ration gauge ?
Thanks
All stock internals. AEM wideband 11.7'S FROM 3K UP 13.8 AVG idle and tip-in
Old 06-29-2013, 10:55 AM
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470-530BHP with stock internals and much larger turbo, not to mention quick spool time? Call me a skeptic, but something doesn't add up.
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:24 PM
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Doesn't Brian, rarlyl8, usually say 400 rwhp is relatively easy to achieve on cis?

If my memory serves me right, we are not too far off.

Lets hear more, please
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Old 06-29-2013, 07:39 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Yes 400WHP can be done with bolt-on parts and cams. At that level with CIS you have exceeded the efficiency range of the K27-7200 and need to move to a hybrid K27 or Garrett, etc. larger turbo. We have done several builds with K27HF and other K27 hybrid turbos that pulled 400WHP and hit 1.0bar by 2700rpm. With EFI it's a different ballgame and the custom sized turbos are popular when shooting for 500+WHP. We've done a few twin scroll setups that had good results. Lots of variable come to play besides the turbo when you mix in EFI and engine management.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 06-29-2013, 09:38 PM
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Is there any problems running these engines at
1.2 bar with good air/fuel ratios and lots of oil cooling .
Old 06-30-2013, 04:36 PM
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