Advice needed - buying a 1976 930

[billj747]

My grandfather is looking into buying a 1976 930 from an old acquaintance of his.

The car is black, has ~90K miles, and has an aftermarket Momo steering wheel, Recaro seats, aftermarket wheels, and was said to be repainted (didn't specify the whole car or just a sand-blasted bumper). Do all 1976 930's have black trim panels? The photos of this car has chrome trim panels.

It has been recommended by many people to have a PPI by a Porsche shop familiar with older P-cars before buying it. I wanted to look at it first and see if it was worth taking it to a shop to be further inspected.

I've been told to check the front frame rails under the front hood/trunk carpet for buckling near the firewall to identify signs of damage, as well as make sure the VIN starts with "930" and not "911". I was also advised to look into the perforated VIN panel to see what the original color of the car was. It was also recommended to start the car cold and 30 minutes after a drive to make sure the 'crappy/old school' fuel injection design is still functioning properly.

Any advice on what to look for or be aware of (typical rust areas, bushing degredation, oil leaks, turbo problems, transmission problems, expected rebuild mileage, etc...) would be greatly appreciated.


Thank you,

Billy

[infraredcalvin]

A ppi is a must, it is VERY easy to put several K into these cars just to get them running right. carefull on the "crappy fi" stuff, you'll find out that many of the people here are quite happy with a properly tuned cis car. Unless this is a real steal, you need to know what you are getting into. Although these cars may seem cheap to purchase, they are very expensive to maintain unless you do all the work yourself - then it's just the parts that are pricey.

a few things about the 76 vs 78 and later cars...

- 3.0 vs 3.3 the 76 is a little lighter and handles lighter - its just a different feeling car.
- "s" aluminum calipers vs the fat 917 derrived brembos - some feel the early cars are underbraked, but to me it adds to the fun of driving these cars. I don't track my car, so it's not a huge issue to me.
- NO INTERCOOLER - if in stock form this car has no intercooler, nor does one fit under the stock whaletail lid (unless custom made). Raising power safely is a little more costly due to this.

get some pictures up, and do a lot of searcing around here, all the regulars on the turbo forum are awesome.

Where in so cal are you by the way, is your Grandfather here as well? I'm in south oc.

[billj747]

Thanks (calvin?),

I quoted the "crappy fi" comment from a Porsche shop owner. Ive driven a lot of '90+ P-cars but am not too familiar with the older cars. I just recently read that the '76 dosn't have power-assisted brakes?

I have also heard the '76-77 is under-braked compared to the performance level of the car. I don't see any reason not to put the later tail and an intercooler on the car other than keeping it closer to stock (which it already isn't).

It appears to be a really good deal, the photos of the car looked clean, but it was said to be repainted and i'm concerned about the chrome trim. On rennlist one member said the black can fade back to chrome but the photos didn't look like faded black but rather very clean and distinctly chrome on all trim pieces. Did any 930 come with chrome trim as an option?

I should look at the car Friday and will take my own photos.

You can't get any further south and still be in Orange County than me.

[infraredcalvin]

Calvin is my dog's name, i'm Pat...

We're pretty close, you gotta be in San Clemente, I'm a little north from you in Ladera Ranch. The chrome trim did come on some cars, mine was black that has faded/been rubbed out, it now has a gunmetal look to it - it looks kind of cool to me.

There are a few shops around here that will give you a good inspection, I take my car to Vision Motorsports in Lake Forest for service. They mostly work on later cars now, but I've known them for several years and have taken care of me - they really know their stuff but they are pefectionists and that can cost a ton of dough...

Most of these cars WILL leak, they get really, really hot - esp with no intercooler and the trombone "oil cooler" in the fender plan on upgrading or freaking out in the heat of summer. Find out how much boost it's running - watch out if more than stock. If it has the original turbo, mine died at 100K. The more modern turbos are more predictable and linear in power.

[infraredcalvin]

sorry, posted too fast, this is a crappy pic from when i first brought mine home a few years ago, it shows the rubbed out black trim...

[billj747]

Yes i'm in San Clemente. Very clean car by the way! I would like to meet up with you sometime to check it out regardless of what happens with this '76. My buddy use to work at Vision and I talked to them a bit.

I still need to get the name of the shop that my grandfather wanted to take the car to, (apparently they raced p-cars in the 70's-80's) and ask Vision if they approve of that shop.

Not to get too ahead of myself but what oil cooler setups are the norm to upgrade to? I've seen some RSR-type front bumpers with oil coolers incorporated into them. Can the stock oil pump send the oil that far and back without problems?

Billy

[infraredcalvin]

Cool, we should meet for a drink one of these days, i'll bring the car. it's a work in progress but i'm really happy with it. I'm in the process of getting a carrera style cooler mounted in the fender - pelican sells one from elephant racing that is pretty good. it is not a "bolt in" mod i'm finding out, so i'm taking my time and working on it when i have time. if you want to change the front valence, there are many options for the front oil cooler. the stock pump is fine, some guys are running multiple coolers in theirs using the stock pump.

Most of the good 930 guys around here all came from Andial in costa mesa (as did the owner of vision) so it's a pretty tight group that all knows of each other.

[Hayabusa]

I let this one put her leg on my '77. She said it wouldn't fit on 1978+ 930's!

[billj747]

Originally Posted by infraredcalvin

Cool, we should meet for a drink one of these days, i'll bring the car. it's a work in progress but i'm really happy with it. I'm in the process of getting a carrera style cooler mounted in the fender - pelican sells one from elephant racing that is pretty good. it is not a "bolt in" mod i'm finding out, so i'm taking my time and working on it when i have time. if you want to change the front valence, there are many options for the front oil cooler. the stock pump is fine, some guys are running multiple coolers in theirs using the stock pump.

Most of the good 930 guys around here all came from Andial in costa mesa (as did the owner of vision) so it's a pretty tight group that all knows of each other.

That would be great, let me know. If you like sushi, I know a great place as well.

Thats good to know, a front mounted oil cooler dosn't work successfully on NSXs. Hopefully the car is clean and checks out so I can join the 'club'.

[billj747]

Ok, I checked out the car today. The engine was very wet with oil residue (like my M3 and girlfirend's Jetta) but there was no drops of oil on the ground before or after we drove the car. He started the motor when cold and it fired up within 3 seconds without any smoke or hesitation.

Some pics below:



It's a '76 with the later model's dash and vents "dealer installed". The dash is warped, primarily around the vent and they're pricey to replace at ~$1,200. The AC dosn't work but has an updated compressor, a new alternator, and a clutch replaced 4k miles ago.

[Hayabusa]

That car has been ridden hard and put away wet. Are you set on this car or do you just have to get it! Maybe I am just not seeing everything aout it! Wipers are on backwards? It's not a RHD. I mean, it looks nice and they usually do leak a bit. Is it nicer in person?

[jwasbury]

Wipers on backwards? I think that is the reverse wiper park modification. I think its even in the 101 projects book. My car has this done also. When the wipers are parked, they don't sit in the driver's line of sight.

[infraredcalvin]

Originally Posted by billj747

Some pics below:



It's a '76 with the later model's dash and vents "dealer installed". The dash is warped, primarily around the vent and they're pricey to replace at ~$1,200. The AC dosn't work but has an updated compressor, a new alternator, and a clutch replaced 4k miles ago.

Yeah, my case looked similar when I got mine, although this was part of the deal. i planned on a rebuild within 10K miles. I cleaned it up, retorqued some things and now only have a small leak out of the cam covers. I've put about 10K on the car now, and it's still running strong.

As for the interior, i'm sure the pictures make it look a little worse than it is, some good cleanup and a little love will make her look acceptable until you can replace the parts. I'm not crazy about the wheels, the rear looks like it needs a larger spacer to bring the wheel out, but if you factor in some of the fixes in the price you can get her for a great deal. Just roam around here for a while and see what kind of $$$ these guys are putting in their cars.

The wiper issue stated is a common project, it's supposed to reverse the wipers for better visibility.

[Les Paul]

Some good old tlc might just do the trick. The only real drawback to the 76-77 were the weak brakes. You can upgrade pretty easily though. Does it have a real oil cooler in the front right wheel well of the trombone? If it still has the trombone you might want to upgrade there too.

[billj747]

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice. I checked by the car again today after reading as much up on the car as possible. Again, the car fired up within 2-3 seconds, idled great (but had a undulating idle after the 30ish seconds of >1,000rpm warmup), but then evened out in a few minutes when warm to a stable idle. The car sounds healthy, revs strong, but unfortunately I still didn't get to drive it.

I'm still debating whether to undergo this 'project' or have a PPI done to investigate further.

The wiper bolts were 'loose' and 'needed to be tightened down'. They were tighter than finger tight and i was able to swivel the wipers around to the stock drivers side without any problem. I was concerned the splines werent grabbing or stripped, but I was able to move both freely back and fourth, barely feeling resistance of splines.

The wheels are 17" Speedline with tires 30mm front and rear wider than what should be used. The speedlines also look like they were designed for a regular 911 and front and rear are inset a lot. I'm not a fan of them and would sell them for original or replica 16x7 and 16x9 OEM wheels.

The car does have the trombone of pipes (oil cooler you say?) in the RF fender well. Everything on the car looks original from a component standpoint and it seems the car has been outside for a while.

I know the car will look a heck of a lot better with some TLC, but the RF fender needs to be repainted (due to keying vandalism) and a few poorly touched-up areas are a bit of an eyesore. Another interesting note is the passenger door has holes that were poorly filled and painted from what appears to be where a mirror was installed. The holes are in the forward position like the drivers mirror. Either aftermarket mirrors were put on in both forward positions (driver and passenger) or this door was off of an English version car and was set back to where the passenger mirror should be on a LHD car (poorly filling in the original holes).

The dash is warped and warped significantly around the 77-78 dash vents. I've found the replacement dash is ~$1,200, warped door pockets for $500 each, yellowed headliner for $140 (but i'm sure the install would be expensive if I can't figure out how to install it myself), sunroof cables, warped/unglued glovebox cover, torn bolster on the aftermarket Recaro seat (driver), and of course the work that needs to be done to the paint. All of that assuming it passes a PPI and has good leakdown # and a healthy motor (which other than the straight frame, seems to be the only thing good about the car).

The car did have 2 dime-sized drops of oil under it between yesterday's test and today, so it is leaking a little oil.

...I just have to debate whether its worth moving forward with a PPI or passing on this opportunity. It seems that over $15K could easily be put into the car and have it still be sub-par to $25K cars on the market.

But since the owner is a friend of my grandfather's it sounds like we could get it for one hell of a deal. I've been quoted $8K for a transmission rebuild and 20K for a motor rebuild by some shops, does that sound right for a refresh or is that for a complete rebuild? -I'm not sure if restoring it makes financial sense. Maybe just strip the car and turn it into a track car...

[billj747]

Tired headers and exhaust

What are these hoses?:


Engine bay is pretty clean

Passenger mirror holes:

RF fender damage:


Are these front shock tower cracks of concern?:

[Ronnie's.930]

Hello - a "typical" trans rebuild is around 3.5-4K (assuming you drop the trans off at a shop) . . . so the quote you got is around twice what you should expect to pay (and I am talking about a first rate overhaul done by a reputable, experienced shop - not some lowball hack price) . . .

An engine overhaul could easly go into the 20K range depending on what components need to be serviced or replaced (and how badly you are bitten by "while I am in there" itis !!!!!). . .

Ronnie

[oilonly]

I say the car looks abused. How much is the owner asking?

[billj747]

Since its from a family friend it sounds like sub $15K.

Does anyone have experience with the company Motor Meister?

http://www.motormeister.com/suz/rebuild_kit/rebuild_kit_911.htm

They are pretty close to me and I know a few motor builders, one whose put together everything under the sun (but not porsches), and I would feel confident he could tear down the 930 3.0L and put it back together especially with everything Motor Meister already does. For $3,000 and the resources I have, it would be quite a bit less expensive than a $20K quote and might make this unloved car seem more appealing.

I've also found door pockets for $500 for both, leather door panels for $300, $140 head liner, etc... Its not looking too bad, maybe a fun project.

But what about those front shock tower mounts? are they just sticky German goo that is cracking or is it an important structural member that makes it concerning?

[infraredcalvin]

Originally Posted by billj747

But what about those front shock tower mounts?[/B] are they just sticky German goo that is cracking or is it an important structural member that makes it concerning?

It just looks like they've been off, you might possibly have some new shocks installed. Most get scrubbed away anyway and a shock tower brace is installed.

Just in case, check if the fenders have been off or replaced (scratched paint on mounting bolts or mismatched undercoating) could be left over accident damage.