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Adding Stock IC to 77 Car

Im in process of buying a later model intercooler from an 87 930 from a pelican, my plan is to install it to my 1977 non ic motor as its very hot most of the year here.

Has many done this? if so what were the gains in driveability, is it hard to do, is there anything to be aware of is or it a matter of finding a different fitting pipe and some mounting bits? and away i go? on the turbo piping there are some holes looks like maybe at factory they were getting ready for the new model ? my car is one of the last 77's built #644 are those holes mounting holes for an IC curious?

the 77's and earlier were short stroke motors with no ic yet performance figures were almost identical, ive heard some say the motor is more free revving..

you can see the holes on the piping..

Old 12-27-2013, 06:39 PM
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Here is a recent thread discussing some variances between the 77/78 year models. I did a quick read and post 12 and 13 mention that the throttle body is at a different angle on the early turbo creating issues with fitment of a late turbo intercooler.

Intercooler 101








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Old 12-27-2013, 07:30 PM
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Thanks for link. i had a look but it pertains to Powerhaus and a modified Garrettson IC,
none of those as far as i could see are the same as a stock 3.3 ic, ill post some pics when i get ready to mount, i need similar/same tech parts links or info on pics or its dutch to me
Old 12-27-2013, 10:01 PM
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The tail on your '77 is different from the '78+. See thread, but the former is a whale tail and the 78+ style tea tray was designed to provide clearance for an intercooler. So in addition to reconfiguring your vacuum lines you may need to swap tails to fit an intercooler.

What's your goal with fitting an intercooler to your '77 3.0L turbo? I understand the ambient temps are on the hot side where you are, so obviously an intercooled turbo ought to provide more efficient boost. But these '77 "Ur" turbos are now starting to gain value among collectors, particularly ones that are in mostly unmolested state. Obviously it's your car so you should set it up how you want, but if more boost is your goal or more power generally you may want to pick a mod that's easier to return to stock so you retain more of the value if/when you sell. Like a K27 turbo or aftermarket exhaust etc, assuming you still have the stock ones fitted to your car.
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Last edited by lee88; 12-28-2013 at 04:07 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 12-28-2013, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
if so what were the gains in driveability
It'll lower inlet charge temperatures significantly.

Temperature comparison figures between stock, Garrettson, Ruf and Kokelyn intercoolers are published here intercooler.

According to that, the factory intercooler will reduce a 220 inlet charge temperature by 70 degrees.

Compressing a gas heats it up; remember bicycle pumps getting hot? And so does passing it through a metal assembly that's exposed to exhaust gases and glowing red hot at the cast iron side..

The cooler the charge, the denser it is. The denser the charge, the more power the motor makes. Exactly why 930's drive so freakin' awesome in the winter when there's ice on the road...

Cooler intake charge means the motor has more margin of safety.

Think a good intercooler is generally figured as being worth 20HP or so over a stock intercooler.

If it has any effect on driveabilty other than adding power, it'll be as a consequence of adding volume/pressure drop to the intake path between the throttle plate and the compressor. You might be able to measure it, but I really don't think you'd notice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
finding a different fitting pipe and some mounting bits?
Not if the throttle body is at a different angle; you'll have to address that as well. Either use a matched throttle body/intercooler combination, modify the intercooler, or some other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
there are some holes looks like maybe at factory they were getting ready for the new model ? my car is one of the last 77's built #644 are those holes mounting holes for an IC curious?
Nope. They are for the air (smog) pump diverter valve - according to JFairman in the other thread. (Heh. I idly wondered what those were for on my Kokelyn adapter more than once)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
Thanks for link. i had a look but it pertains to Powerhaus and a modified Garrettson IC,
Take another look. The Garrettson was actually built as a bolt-on for your exact application - a 3.0 early. The added valve is neither here nor there.

See the different angle on the Garrettson intercooler outlet (throttle body pipe) as compared to the Powerhaus (for a 3.3)? That's to match the different throttle body on your car.

The Powerhaus is a short-neck (retaining the factory recirculation valve assembly) intercooler bolt-on to a 3.3 in place of the stock intercooler.
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee88 View Post
What's your goal with fitting an intercooler to your '77 3.0L turbo? I understand the ambient temps are on the hot side where you are, so obviously an intercooled turbo ought to provide more efficient boost. But these '77 "Ur" turbos are now starting to gain value among collectors, particularly ones that are in mostly unmolested state. Obviously it's your car so you should set it up how you want, but if more boost is your goal or more power generally you may want to pick a mod that's easier to return to stock so you retain more of the value if/when you sell. Like a K27 turbo or aftermarket exhaust etc, assuming you still have the stock ones fitted to your car.
Exactly. It's your car, but it sounds like you want to turn it into a later car (at great expense). Meanwhile, people are willing to buy your car as is at a high price. The later cars have some advantages that you may want:

Higher compression
Bigger brakes
Pressure-fed tensioners
Intercooler
Whale tail for intercooler
Better heat
Better A/C
Better exhaust

You could put all the crap you took off back on, get rid of the weird orange paint, sell your car, and make enough money to buy a later car, with enough left over for Fabspeed exhaust, lightweight clutch, and a bigger intercooler. Just trying to help.
Old 12-28-2013, 07:20 AM
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^^ +1, except for the whale tail / tea tray mix up
Old 12-28-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon930Berlin View Post
^^ +1, except for the whale tail / tea tray mix up
I had my nomenclature right, didn't I? Tea tray is '78+, whale tail is '75-77.
Whale Tail vs. Tea Tray Spoiler
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:21 AM
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yes, speedysquirrel didn't, but I guess that was a Flüchtigkeitsfehler
Old 12-29-2013, 04:50 AM
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If it´s the car on the pictures in the OP garage, it looks like a cab. conversion.
In that case I wouldn´t worry too much about originality.
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:59 AM
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Yes its a bit of a bane for me,
ive removed the cab roof and in process of purchasing a Hardtop to make it back to factory with some later model improvements,
ive already swapped the front end to late 930 as it had a 964 update kit, Big brakes which will stay, no orange paint its my camera or computer lol,
Long term goal is for a close to Factory Car, but with some changes that arent over the top for better driveability and satisfaction.

I prefer a better driving to one that is worth more any day,
Car was a daily driver and will be again when i put a roof on it. last week each day was over 40 deg celcius i think thats about 105f or so not sure but when your in traffic it gets pretty warm, My hope is that i can add an IC at not much expense and work as im no mechanic,

As its off the road atm with no roof ive started from the front of the car and working my way back in cleaning checking painting oiling every nut and part so to speak, up to the fuel tank at present, got a new problem as i photographed everything as i removed things but i cant find my camera, and in my stress looking for one i knocked the table where i had all the nuts and bits in containers and theyre all mixed up so bit of a jigsaw.. plus ive got a snapped off bolt in the front suspension thing on the end ive been trying to dremel out for a week ..plenty of time to get it right though

Here she is now

A Fun Learning curve though just in taking bits apart and checking it all
The Rubber had nicks in it so ive applied black silicone to fill it, ill then sand back and rubber paint it



This was a torn rubber sleeve for front fuel pump repaired with the silicone, very handy trick, also with grommets that are hard i soak them in brake fluid overnight works well


Everything from Fuel tank down im Zinc Coating and covering with Rubber Compound
probably not the norm but she wont rust and the only noise i want to hear is the engine.



Ultimate goal is to replicate every panel and replace with carbon fibre, i want it light cos im not


Anyway It will be worth it just to have the confidence in the 1.5bar Factory Boost Guage another reason i want to add an ic


Stuff that didnt work
Old 12-29-2013, 07:06 AM
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Wow.....very interesting project.
The roof-thing is a much more ambitous undertaking than the IC :-)

I don´t think you´ll find it too dificult to find an IC solution to suit your needs.
It would have been more problematic to convert from IC back to stock 3.0 setup if the original intake arrangement was lost.

I hope you will post a bit on the forum as you progress.
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Old 12-29-2013, 07:44 AM
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Thanks for all the advice guys its appreciated,
I have a lot to learn still as its my first turboed porsche,
anyway plenty of time,

Ill leave you with a Top repair Technique i found Today!

My spoiler see above pics which had nicks and scratches and silicone Bog came up like new with a spray can of Rustoleum Rubber Roofing Spray, it filled the gaps perfectly and has a natural Texture almost identical to the factory Spoiler.
Its slightly more of a Flat Finish but hard to notice the difference

Old 12-29-2013, 06:44 PM
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Indeed, ambitious... I agree the roof is probably harder than the IC Good luck getting things squared away.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:33 AM
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Cheers,
all the more difficult is im doing it myself i dont know how to weld so i was thinking of JB Weld would that work? just line it up sort of and away i go just wait 24 hours for it to dry?

Im half serious can it work?? as it does not need to be strong just not fall off as the front pillars have been reinforced anyway from when it was a cab, so what is needed is basically for the jb to hold all the pillars in place so i can install the windows and such, thinking of it a bit scary id hate for it to fly off,
Old 12-30-2013, 11:19 PM
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Welding isn't so hard that jb weld would pose a viable option with this type of job. Get or borrow a welder and practice welding some joints and go ahead and do the required welding. I know there may be some multilayered sections but do what needs to be done. Jb weld would be in your mind all the time if your driving over 100mph and you would never be able to relax if you went forward that way. Please don't jb weld that awesome car. The right way is to weld the roof pillars. Good luck and if you need help, pay some one to do that part.
Old 12-31-2013, 06:28 AM
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Robby, I don't understand if what you are putting on your car is a hard top intended for convertibles, or a roof skin from a 911 coupe?
Old 12-31-2013, 07:54 AM
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Thanks Quattro
Hi Jim im putting on a hardtop made for a hardtop a complete factory hardtop off a 1973 911 including the pillars heres a pic im getting it off a pelican here,
My car left the factory in 1977 with a hardtop roof it was in the nineties i think that someone converted it to a convertible, im merely trying to bring it back to how it was made in the first place, ive looked at skins but no good as i need the pillars in place and complete and full length of them, most of what ive looked at have had the pillars cut short so its no good,

Roof is currently in chicago, The front pillars off the 73 i will be removing i think as my car retains the front pillars and glass as it was when it had the convertable roof on it, i wont be extremely worried about strength the front pillars of my car have been reinforced to accomodate the previous cab roof that was on it, not to mention some long lengths of steel welded along underside of car for lateral support which i will be taking off.
So basically this is a complete conversion backwards you could say from cab to hardtop as it was originally built, difference being it originally had a sunroof but im deleting that in this roof, it will be better for some weight saving and i think it makes a big difference in lowering the centre of gravity, this is a pretty light roof at 41lbs complete

Old 12-31-2013, 04:11 PM
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I just finished much the same as what you describe but it was on a 993, though the roof is the same as a 911. Did the sunroof thing too. Lots and lots of hours to get it right. No epoxy solution. I started in Jan and finished in Oct. part time of course. Had the roof on and off a couple hundred times to trim the A and B pillars, then the outside and inside of the C pillars. Had to reconstruct the window lip needed to hold the rear quarter windows in (used SC glass, not glue in 993 $$ parts). The window lip is in a different location for the cab, but maybe yours is preserved.

Sorry for taking your thread off course Robby, but I thought you would be interested in some first hand work.



The white roof is a 95 993 and the yellow roof is a 66 912. Both the same aside from the sunroof so I wanted to use the 912 roof but corrosion was pretty bad around the rear quarter windows so I used the white roof and some donor skin from the 912 to fill in the opening.















Old 12-31-2013, 04:45 PM
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Thanks for posting the pics its the first ive seen of this type of work so im a bit less in the dark now.

I think on my 77 ill have to replace the side windows? ill know for sure when ig et the roof on what will migrate to it and what wont

Heck and i was hoping i would get it done in a weekend
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:33 AM
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