Challenges for a Novice DIY Engine out service
 

Hey Guys,

As you all know, my last expedition (12 months & $9000) on having the oil leak fixed on my '91 964 Turbo by an air cooled expert, 1000 miles away, failed miserably.

I was going to have the local dealer work on the car (RMS leak) but I really can't expect anything besides just the basic work. I also don't feel comfortable with the only mechanic there that works on these air cooled cars.

I have absolute no mechanical skills but have a friend who has plenty of experience working on the cars including VW and their engines but have never worked on a Porsche.

I really would like to do the work myself and do every thing by the book and do it right and in the process change/replace what ever needs to be replaced. It's un- believable the little issues the car had and still has (few) that could have been avoided had the mechanic paid attention to his work :mad:

So my question is, where do I start and what do I need in order to drop the motor, look at the RMS and to go further if needed?

Where can I get the relevant stuff like factory manuals, any special tools etc.

I don't doubt his skills but not knowing the particulars of this car (what's normal and what's not) is where my reservation is?

So with his mechanical skills and with plenty of knowledge here, can this be pulled off?

Please go easy and help me sort out my car.

Thanks

For tools and books, I'd suggest getting them from our host.

The 101 projects books and engine rebuild book are good reference materials for you.

101 Projects for your Porsche 911

These aren't specific to the 964, but many of the procedures will be the same. Yes you can do it. If you truly have zero mechanical skills you will need to lean on that friend and this forum a lot. How good a friend is this?

+1 for Jacob's recommendations.
Also lots of threads here on engine removal and fixing leaks. Do some searches...if you don't find what you need....post pictures, give a detailed account of what your dealing with, and the brain trust will deliver.

Yes I have been reading and taking notes but still no harm in asking direct questions, right?

So where can I find the rear fender covers to avoid any accidental injury ;)

Any Do's and Dont's for the first time engine removal?

Special tools?

Thanks

Everyone is new once. I think the question you should be asking yourself is if learning this is something you are committed to doing. I have done my fair share of work in my younger years on cars, engine swap, EFI and the like. I did it mostly because I enjoyed the work and the feeling of accomplishment it gives you. I also like knowing the car inside and out. That being said, I have never done anything quite so big as an engine drop on a 930.

My feeling that is that if you are doing this just to save money and you are as you say not mechanically inclined, your starting off with pretty big task and you may be in for a bad time. I have no doubt you can do it, the human brain is amazing but I wouldnt think that it will be quick, easy or cheap.

Jwas brings up a very good point, how good of a friend is this? This type of thing can test a friendship. And there is nothing worse than working on something really important to you with someone who is not as invested (both financially and timewise).

Now all that being said, I am new to the Porsche realm and these forums but I can tell you having owned multiple brands and been involved in their respective communities that the 930 folks are some of the best. This is key when youre just starting out and ended up being a big part of why I bought my 930. Dont hesitate to reach out here for help. And I would go so far to see who is local to you. In the VW world allot of help can be bought with beer. :)

I just got my copy of 101 projects and it is very good. Having learned all things mechanical from the VW Robert Bentely factory manuals this book is a close second. Every once and awhile the factory service manuals come up on ebay, though a large financial commitment if this is a forever car and you are committed to learning, more info is always better.

To close out, if you love this car then I say do it. Go slow, take a ridiculous amount of pictures (before you tear into things) and dont be afraid to walk away and take a break. I have needlessly broken more things through frustration than a lack of knowledge or skill.

Go forth my son, turn a wrench.

Rear service cover...order from Pelican here:

Pelican Parts - Product Information: PEL-COLSC011

Do's and don'ts and tools you need?.. That's what the books are for (then supplement with forum searches). When forum search fails, you post questions here that are specific based upon your accumulated knowledge from reading the books and scouring these forums for information.

I rebuilt my engine completely using the books, and this forum as my resource. I wasn't a novice wrench turner, but I certainly never attempted anything like this before. I researched the hell out of everything. I spent hours reading the books and searching the forums every time I hit a snag. I did it because, like you, I was fed up with paying supposed professionals who clearly were asleep at the wheel while they were charging good money to "fix" my car. I came to a realization that no amount of money (that I am willing to spend) is going to buy the level of care that I want my car to be given. I think that's how many people who frequent this place become serious DIYers.

How is your "stick-to-it-iveness"? if you don't have the patience to find out for yourself where to source a rear service cover for your car (as an example), then you may not be up for the commitment required to tackle heavy DIY work. How committed is your friend to providing you assistance? I helped a fellow Pelican with an engine drop and rebuild project. I made it clear to this person that it was his project, and aspects of his build that deviated from my knowledge and experience from my own build was his problem to figure out. There is a difference between helping with a project, and taking ownership of a project.

If you decide you don't want to DIY you are 4 hours from me. Load 'er on a trailer and haul it down.

I would take Brian up on that offer.

Me too.

I am not after saving any money at all but having seen some of the DIY stuff on various forums including here, I know that's the only way I want to do it.

This is the car that I always wanted since my high school days (early 80's) so it is my dream car and I want to get it done right.

I am not going to get into it until I have done enough research and have educated myself enough to be able to communicate with the mechanic friend and also to be able to know where the snag is.

The easy way for me would be to pay some one else to do the work for me but this time around, I got to take care of it myself.

Brian, thanks for the offer and I will look into it should I need any help.

Friend is an acquaintance whom I have known for quite few years here locally. I am not expecting a free hand here so he will be paid for his experience but in return I will get to see the progress in my own garage.

Thanks and please keep the suggestions rolling

Sounds like a great endeavor! Don't be put off by anyone saying you can't do your own work. Outside of machine work, you can likely tackle anything with the right approach. I learned how to rebuild an BMW S14 with the help of a good friend and forums. This was after a crappy shop did a horrible job with a previous rebuild.

The cliche applies- the journey is part of the reward and you'll learn patience and perseverance. Not to mention satisfaction.

End of pep talk. Post up pics along the way!

Bryant

A quick question and apologies in advance if I sound stupid.

Are there anything different (tolerances/parts etc) between a 911 Turbo motor or say any other motor? The reason I ask is, 'coz being able work on a motor and having a knowledge of stuff you will be doing are two different things at least in my mind?

My point is, opening up the motor and figuring out what's normal and what's not, is that something I need to figure out before hand (educate/read blah blah) or need to ask my friend, what he knows about these motors?

Thanks

I haven't yet been inside a 911/930 engine, but don't need to have been in order to say this with confidence; it ain't magic, it's a forty-year-old-technology internal combustion engine. Admittedly, it's more highly engineered than your basic American V8 but don't let that deter you. I'll be dropping my engine in a couple of weeks and although I know I'll encounter certain elements of engine design I haven't dealt with (exactly, anyway) in the other builds I've done, I have few misgivings. In fact, my only real concern is finding enough non-work-and-family time in order to be finished in time for Summer.

Tolerances are tolerances, and all engines have them. Specs, as well as answers to nearly every question you'll have are available right here on this forum. Read a lot, then read some more. Every engine marque has its nuances, and this Porsche-designed one is no exception. In fact, it probably has more than its share. Fortunately, through books and this forum you'll be able identity those things in advance and learn the hints and tricks you'll need to address them.

Document the location and orientation of the various bits and parts with plenty of notes, grease pencil markings and photos.

Buy quality parts. If you find you need a part - even a small, seemingly insignificant one - order it and wait for it to arrive. Don't "make do".

Find a machine shop with a good reputation, then visit the shop and interview the guy who will be doing the work before entrusting many thousands of dollars of parts to their care.

Have a very well-equipped tool chest (or quick and easy access to one) and buy the specialized tools necessary to complete the job properly.

So, a synopsis, in no particular order; work methodically, measure, document your work, ask questions, rinse and repeat.

^^^^ +1 for sure... NO shortcuts, plenty of photos, and keep it as clean as you can!

Enjoy the journey and the satifaction will come.

I am in Etown, may be we should meet sometime?

Im in the same boat have had many days and nights of frustration, ive spent a week working out how to re attach the dum bracket that holds the water washer bottle because i didnt ask and didnt bother to redearch because i thought it too simple .
So dont be scared to ask stupid questions

Take a picture of every step and dont lose your camera like i did
If you think a section is easy dont let it fool you into thinking youll remember the correct reverse procedure.. unless you have a good memory cos even the simplest things can stuff you up
im still backtracking previous jobs i did because ive got too many nuts and bolts left over..

Ill keep coming back to this post because youve asked the questions i never did at the beginning and thought i could do it all myself, we all have different skills.

Its very important to be PATIENT when working on them

Hello Yasir
lots of good advice and encouragement here.a lot depends on what your trying to fix.

your original post mentioned a RMS leak I'm assuming this means rear main seal? this is medium difficulty depending On mechanical experience/ skill.

in a later post you ask about engine internals tolerances. potentially implying that you're opening up the engine for a rebuild? This is the highest degree of difficulty.

what do you want to fix..upgrade?

Dropping the engine is by far the easy part. Once you do it, you'll recognize how straight forward it is.

A slight more challenge is putting it back in. But, this is only slightly more challenging. Back in my misspent youth, I used to go to bug-ins and watch teams of 2 drop a VW engine push it 25 feet, put it back in and drive the car in under 6 minutes. Bugs are a little simpler, but identical principles.

Don't fear, there are MANY folks who will offer very useful advice if you get stuck anywhere in the process.

Now, refurbishing and reassembling and engine is another story. You really want to be mechanically inclined and/or having a GOOD friend who is assist with that part. This is where I would ship the engine to Brian or someone like Bruce of flat6pac fame to do the assessment and reassembly/rebuild.

Good luck.

Keith

All of the above advice is spot-on, and I'll add "know your goals". If all you need to do is fix some leaks, then only tear down what you need to. No sense going to the crank if you don't need to, and an RMS can be replaced without opening it up. But if you want to go all the way and mic everything, machine the mating surfaces, etc., go for it, but use an experienced machine shop.

My first crack at any engine was a to-the-crank rebuild on an SC and it took me 18 months due to sporadic periods of motivation failure. But it was an excercise of reading, getting the right tools, snapping pictures, asking questions and going slow. The internals are very basic and logical. Don't underestimate the value of just staring at things for a while to take in how parts work and are put together. Pictures pictures pictures.

I'm doing a top end on my 930 now, and it would only have taken me a week had I not needed to send out a jug for replating. Different motivation, experience and committment made the difference on this one.

Oh lookie there....I just got a shipping confirmation email on my replated cylinder. Sweet!

Must-have tools IMHO are the correct engine yolk for your stand, an ATV jack, cam nut tool and quality measuring devices including a good torque wrench if you're going in there. A scissor lift makes removal/install a snap, but plenty of people do it with jack stands.

Good luck, let us know how it's going.

I did this same job a few weeks ago. Not a novice to cars in general, but to Porsches, yes. Best piece of advice I can give? Keep everything organized and clean. Clean your garage up prior, or everything will get lost. :)