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Suspension upgrade. 30 or 31 that is the Q

Hi. Last summer >I finished my engine upgrade on my 1980 930 as seen in my signature. We estimate 400-450 HP. I will dyno this spring.

Now its time for a suspension upgrade. Since this is primarely a road car for fun and road trips, I don't want to go too extreme. I take it to the track with the local Porsche clup events, and hope for a trip to Nurburgring this summer, but its all for fun.

I have been communicating with some of the well known suspension dealers for 911's, and have come up with this package:

22/30 or 31 hollow torsion bars
Elephant Poly bronze all round
Elephant front control arm mount
Hi. Last summer >I finished my engine upgrade on my 1980 930 as seen in my signature. We estimate 400-450 HP. I will dyno this spring.

Now its time for a suspension upgrade. Since this is primarely a road car for fun and road trips, I don't want to go too extreme. I take it to the track with the local Porsche clup events, and hope for a trip to Nurburgring this summer, but its all for fun.

I have been communicating with some of the well known suspension dealers for 911's, and have come up with this package:

22/30 or 31 hollow torsion bars
Elephant Poly bronze all round
Elephant front control arm mount
Front camber plate rubber bushing
Rack spacer bump steer kit
Bilstein sports front and rear
Rubber trailing arm bushing
D-Zug 935 cross bar (for its share awsome look)
and maybe the Quick change splined hub from Elephant (any experience with this)

The things that I am most uncertain about is the size rear torsion bar. 30 or 31? and rubber or monoballs for front camber plate and trailing arm. As can be understood from my engine build, I'm looking for a real sporty ride, but without being a bone shattering ride. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a STREET car, and not a racer. Too much cool stuff in these web shops.

For the guys with upgraded suspension. What is your experience with these bar sizes, and with the monoballs. Some tell me monoballs will give a really harsh ride, other say it will only increase road noise. I'd like to hear from you who drive a similar setup daily.


btw. I will look at sway bars might later

Thx
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S

Last edited by aseem; 02-04-2014 at 12:02 PM.. Reason: ..
Old 02-04-2014, 11:51 AM
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Hei Arnljot,

I have all of the suspension upgrades that you are aiming for. (More here http://porscheentusiasten.com/trondr.php )
Have monoball on the elephant quick change camber plates.
I have 23/31 TB in my modded 930. Hollow tb front and solid rear
It was set up with 29 rear and 100lbs helper springs, but opted for 31mm and removed helper springs.

Last year it was still understeer, but it needed a 4 wheel alignment and weight on all corners.
I thought that if it was still understeer after alignment, I would go for coilovers.

But the wheel alignment/weight balancing really changed the car.
Before I could fight with GT2/3 on the straight, but lost in the turns.
Now I outrun newer Porsches in the turns :-)

I use my car as street, but take it to the track (Rudskogen) now and then.
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1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo

Last edited by totle; 02-04-2014 at 12:28 PM..
Old 02-04-2014, 12:26 PM
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Hi Trond. Great to hear from you. Did you do the corner balance yourself? Seems like balancing is really important after an upgrade.
So how do you like your 31's, and how do you feel the monoballs affected ride quality? Do you have upgraded sway bars as well? My thinking is that its ieasy to add stuff later instead of taking off expensive parts because I don't like the ride.
I think I will go for the 31, but stick to rubbers instead of monoballs. Then I can add more stuff later if things are too "squishy"...

Btw. Are you in my area? Would be nice to meet some time...
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1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 02-04-2014, 12:35 PM
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With 400-450Hp, I cannot imagine that you will be happy with ANY amount of rubber parts in your suspension.
What would be the point of going with poly bronze in some places and rubber in others??? What is the point of quick change splined rear trailing arm plates, if you are intending on only setting up the car once? Seems like a waste of money, that would be better spent on other items.

I would give Clint a call at Rebel Racing Products, and have a good long chat with him, I think you will go a slightly different route after that conversation.

Just my .02 worth.

Mark
Old 02-04-2014, 12:40 PM
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If your area is Norway, yes I am.
Live in Fevik, close to Arendal. PM'd you my phone nr.
Have also bigger adjustable sway bars front and rears.
Only rubber that is left in my suspension is the rubber on top of the rear shocks :-)

Car is stiff, but again really responsive.
I really like it. Feels like a real sports car :-)

Call me anytime for a chat
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1979 930: Garret GT35r turbo, EFI, carerra intake, Link EMS, custom GT2 cams, 98mm JE P/C, 964 crank (stroker), custom valves & ported (XtremeCylinderHeads) etc..etc..
1972 914-6 GT replica project
1986 944 Turbo
Old 02-04-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by full quack View Post
With 400-450Hp, I cannot imagine that you will be happy with ANY amount of rubber parts in your suspension.
What would be the point of going with poly bronze in some places and rubber in others??? What is the point of quick change splined rear trailing arm plates, if you are intending on only setting up the car once? Seems like a waste of money, that would be better spent on other items.

I would give Clint a call at Rebel Racing Products, and have a good long chat with him, I think you will go a slightly different route after that conversation.

Just my .02 worth.

Mark
I did contact Clint. He responded really quick the first time, and gave me great advice (he actually recommended new rubbers for front tower and rear trailing arms instead of monoballs). That was before x-mass. However he whent silent and never responded again to my mails or answered phone calls, so I gave up... To bad because I liked his bits

My main reason for the splined hub is the easy height adjustment. It is expensive, so I might drop that in the last minute.
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 02-04-2014, 01:00 PM
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Ok. So I ended up with 30 mm rear bars after a lot of back and forth. Had a few e-mails with Chuck and read a lot of other t-bar threads to see what others with upgraded engines were doing.

I took Full Quack's point as well, and dropped the quick change rear spring plate, and spent the money on mono balls instead.

Here everything is lined up on the work bench ready for mounting. It just looks too damned cool to hide away under the car, never to be seen again. Think I'll buy an extra set of those bearings and camber plates, just to have them sitting on my desk.






I also have a Setrab 72 row front cooler waiting, and with oil lines and mounting brackets from Elephant, I'm ready to go. With my DP front spoiler, it's going to be a real tight fit to get the lines into the cooler.

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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 02-16-2014, 10:09 AM
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Sweet looking parts. I recently did a similar overhaul and the car is a whole different animal now. I had 31 bars but swapped them for coil overs of an equal spring rate (350lbs, IIRC).
I would suggest you at least think about going with the custom rear Bilsteins that have the groove machined into them before you install the yellow sport ones in your pic.
That way, b/c you went with the 30mm bars, if you end up with too much rear squat on acceleration (you have a lot more power now), you can easily install a small helper coil over spring over the shock body. Just a thought- I'm sure shipping overseas is likely too much of a bother and a $$ deal killer, but if you were stateside I would definitely suggest you do it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:58 PM
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Hi gsxrken. It was your thread that got me going on this upgrade. It's been in the pipe for a long time, but I was very inspired by your setup, and it also got me intgerested in the RSR parts. In your thread you say you went with 30 mm bars, did you swap them for 31's and then to coilovers?

Yes shipping kan be a killer, but I have a re-shipper in NJ that has pretty good prices, with the choice of plane or boat. But for the suspension parts, I had Elephant ship them with UPS 5 days so that I could get started and finish before spring. I have the X-bar from d-zug on the slow boat, arriving in about 3 weeks time.

Do you have a picture or link to the custom Bilsteins with the groove? Are they the ones from RSR? I figure that if i find 30's too small, I'll sell them locally and buy a new pair.

Thanks for the tip.
Cheers
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 02-16-2014, 02:29 PM
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I just refreshed my suspension with Elephant PB bushimgs all the way around,22/31 solid and hollow reapectvely,Bilstein Sports in the front, custom valve in the rear, stock sways, new drop links and,sway bar bushings, and corner balanced 50/50 diagonally. It was actually a friend that did it for me (jpnovak) and I am very happy with set up. The car drives so much better. It is very planted.
I was concerned about the 31's in the rear but it is exactly what it needed. I think the custom valving is key for the rear.

Just my experience.
Old 02-16-2014, 04:23 PM
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Sorry for the confusion- trust what I said in my thread over my memory. Clint and I discussed 29-31mm bars quite a bit and I must have turned that around in my head. Part of the discussion was power level, and my car is stock other than headers and 7006 turbo so that came into it too. For what you (and I) use our cars for, I would hesitate to say that anything between 29-31 is actually "wrong"; on any given road or track you probably wish you had the 29, and the 30, and the 31 at difference points. Do you want it too soft some of the time or too firm some of the time etc. You can also play with the anti-sway bar links to move it around a little more. I love how mine works, and I'm looking forward to the spring track days for some more tweaking.

I think I know the shipper (in Linden, NJ?) you are talking about. I did a guy a favor and dropped off some original Mustang fenders to a "Fvike" in Mosjeen, Norway at that shipper.

And yes, the custom shocks were from RSR, but I'd be surprised if he's the only supplier for them. Here's a picture where you can see the snap ring in the groove in the shock body near the bottom (only used to hold the coil over if you optionally use one)



Quote:
Originally Posted by aseem View Post
In your thread you say you went with 30 mm bars, did you swap them for 31's and then to coilovers?

Yes shipping kan be a killer, but I have a re-shipper in NJ that has pretty good prices, with the choice of plane or boat.

Do you have a picture or link to the custom Bilsteins with the groove? Are they the ones from RSR?
Cheers
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:55 AM
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UFF DA! Subscribed for updates.
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einsteiger View Post
UFF DA! Subscribed for updates.
LOL

Norwegian for "Oh dear" or similar
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 02-17-2014, 10:20 AM
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Thats the one gsxrken :-)

I suppose you're right about the bars. Dynamic bar size is what we need. If torsion bars were the standard today, they would have made a magnetic arrangement on the inner side that would twist the bar in the opposite direction to tighten the spring during sporty driving. I can imagine you would have a switch with three positions: Normal, Sport and Race. LOL

Yes, thats the RSR shocks I was asking Clint about.


BTW. Nice floor. How do you clean when all the dirt falls through?

Cheers
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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S

Last edited by aseem; 02-17-2014 at 10:27 AM.. Reason: additional comment
Old 02-17-2014, 10:26 AM
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With all of your suspension goodies....I don't see, or have heard you mention your anti-sway bars???

You are not staying with stock are you? Go to 22mm Smart or Tarrett adjustable, and you will be much happier with the overall package & set-up results.

Did you get your shocks/inserts valved to match your torsion bars sizes? I did that on mine, and it made a world of difference. Absolute night -n-day difference as a matter of fact.

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 02-17-2014 at 12:38 PM..
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I was watching how "Full Quack " did his and after seeing his result I have to agree . Complete package is what works the best with corner balance and alignment. You will really feel the car working much better on street and track days. You really need to know if you want a track car or a street car, world of difference but there can be a balance.
Kozmo
Old 02-18-2014, 05:47 AM
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23 in the front and 30 in the rear is what I am running with about the same power if not slightly more than you.

This car has broken 2 sets of hollow rear torsion bars....Now I have a solid 30 and haven't broken them yet.

However, I am also considering running a coilover system in the rear to supplement the bars...The torque that is generated at the rear wheels really makes it squat...
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozmo930 View Post
I was watching how "Full Quack " did his and after seeing his result I have to agree . Complete package is what works the best with corner balance and alignment. You will really feel the car working much better on street and track days. You really need to know if you want a track car or a street car, world of difference but there can be a balance.
Kozmo
Well, this is a street car that will see some occational track days. I will probably install sway bars soon as well, but it will have to wait a little.

I'm not going to document everything here, since an upgrade like this have been documented many times before. I just want to share some highlights and things i learned.

The ball joint pins, were "beaches" to get out. Especially on the left side. I put a nut on the tip of the threads and just had to bang it out with a BFH. I had to go at it in several rounds, and the pin was so bent that i had to cut it with a Dremel before I could get it through the strut.

Since i dont have the ball joint tool, I found it easy to drill the big bottom nut into a couple of pieces so it just fell off. Don't know how to tighten it when putting things back together yet, but hopefully there will be some ideas on this board.




The rubber bushing on the front suspension was rather easy to get off. I just headed the inside of the A arm to the point theat the rubber started to smoke a little, and the pulled right off. No rebber left on the A arm.




When I removed the front inserts, I found that there were two rubber stops in each strut. Thats kind of stange, isn't it?




The rear rubbers was a little more difficult, but I found that if you don't heat them enough, they will come apart, and rubber will stick to the metal. Heated these from the inside as well, and it became a smelly job as many of you have found out before me:




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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 03-08-2014, 02:45 PM
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I hate to put dirty and ugly parts back on the car, so some serious cleaning and prepping of parts take most of the time. Here the A-arms and assorted parts are ready for sanblasting and powder coating. The struts have been sanded and repainted with Rust-Oleum primer and paint. The color is a tad too bright/light (6001) as the correct color was not available from the distributor here in Norway (think that was 6010)

I purchased a cheap soda blaster that really works well to clean up dirty parts like the aluminium support bridge (or whatever) and other stuff. The radius arm will be Kadmium replated to the right color (its actually Zink plating) and I'm planning on doing it myself. I'm inspired by Proffighters plating jobs, so I have purchased a kit for yellow/gold zink plating. We'll see how that works out, and I'll post some pictures. Biggest challenge is going to get the parts clean enough.





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Arnljot
1980 930 GT35R, TurboKraft IC, 965 P&C, 964 Cams, Tial WG, ported heads, BLWUR, RarlyL8 hdrs&mfflr, Zeitronix logger & wideband
1989 928GT
1972 BMW 3.0S
Old 03-08-2014, 02:57 PM
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timely read for this for me, I pulled my rear plates off last night and will be dealing w/ the bushing-melt-ectomy tonight

surfing now to decide what to do on the bars... decisions decisions...

thanks for the tips / details, good luck w/ the rest of your install
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