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GJF GJF is offline
Slantnose from HELL
 
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If I'm not mistaken the HX 40 is almost 3mm larger than the 60-1.but realistically they are literally neck and neck on the compressor side. I would have to say probably the hot side of the HX40 is the bottleneck. I'm not knocking the 60-1 for a p-car, it just runs out of steam the more you push for power. It works well just on the mid scale. When you want more it gets too close to the surge line.
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87 911 Carrera platform
Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-15-2014, 07:40 PM
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Great info!
Not overdoing the turbo was exactly my concern. Rarlyl8 headers are what I am leaning toward already. Gotta decide on a good intercooler. I dont know what kind of upgrades can be done to the CIS and how much it helps. I think I am going to start a thread about my ideas and questions so I am not threadjacking anymore...

thanks GJF!
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Last edited by Jeff NJ; 04-15-2014 at 08:21 PM..
Old 04-15-2014, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
If I'm not mistaken the HX 40 is almost 3mm larger than the 60-1.but realistically they are literally neck and neck on the compressor side. I would have to say probably the hot side of the HX40 is the bottleneck. I'm not knocking the 60-1 for a p-car, it just runs out of steam the more you push for power. It works well just on the mid scale. When you want more it gets too close to the surge line.
Nope, both 60mm's except for my 8 blade, which is 58. There were some 56mm's out there too, but they're oddball. Not to be confused with HX35's.

You meant choke line, not surge? Surge is when the compressor outflows the engines airflow.
Old 04-15-2014, 07:47 PM
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GJF GJF is offline
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The choke line is actually when the compressor cannot provide anymore. If your out that far to the right your over spinning the turbo. To far to the left is,the surge where the turbo falls off not creating pressure. Turbonetics use to label their maps a little different. But the end results are the same. Pardon my slang. I don't like when the engine maps out too high up,and to the right. It over drives the turbo but is out of its efficiency range.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:06 PM
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I always figured you wanted be at the bottom of the most efficient island since the RPM will be the lowest of the turbo while requiring the least amount of backpressure for a given airflow.

You have a preference or an area that is "golden" on a comp map?
Old 04-15-2014, 08:14 PM
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GJF GJF is offline
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Your right, I like to be at the bottom left edge of the center island. That way when the motor comes up on boost it moves diagonally across the center island. I was just mapping the 60-1 to your combination. It maps out to the upper right of the third island which is over spooling it over 100K. Rule of thumb 70K - 90K it the optimum impeller speed. Bottom line your making too much power for that turbo.
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87 911 Carrera platform
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:23 PM
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Yep, but never could figure why it was so laggy though.....
Old 04-16-2014, 04:00 AM
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GJF, what size compressor wheels are you running on your setup? I use a set of billet 3071 wheels. Have also used billet 18G wheels.
Old 04-16-2014, 04:11 AM
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Yep, but never could figure why it was so laggy though.....
Because your running a "P" trim. I would have ran an "O" trim,
Old 04-16-2014, 04:34 AM
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Where to start?
It is impossible to compare the performance of one turbo over another without holding something constant.
The measure of turbo performance comparison is positive differential across the engine at a fixed intake manifold pressure.
Nothing wrong with saying I like this combination of hardware over that however to say it is because one unit is mechanically superior to the other is a reach.
Old 04-16-2014, 04:54 AM
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GJF GJF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche 935 View Post
GJF, what size compressor wheels are you running on your setup? I use a set of billet 3071 wheels. Have also used billet 18G wheels.
Currently it has some hybrids very simular to GT35's. The 3071 is a nice fit for twins for 700+. They are perfect for 350HP per turbo at 1-1.2 bar in the maps sweet spot. Good choice.
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Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-16-2014, 05:05 AM
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Cory, I really like this turbo calculator because of the wide range of compressor maps it has:

Squirrel Performance

I punched in some numbers where I guessed your engine was at. Like 3.2L, 1.4bar 6300 RPM, intercooler etc. Really excellent results for the BW S300 series! They didn't have the S366 specifically.



As the other posters said before, the HX-40 is too small for your engine:



The 60-1 is a good size, but it is loosing efficiency at 1.4 bar:



Cool build!
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:59 AM
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Where to start?

It is impossible to compare the performance of one turbo over another without holding something constant.

The measure of turbo performance comparison is positive differential across the engine at a fixed intake manifold pressure.

Nothing wrong with saying I like this combination of hardware over that however to say it is because one unit is mechanically superior to the other is a reach.
I held the constants almost exactly. I had a 60-1 with a "P" trim using a 0.81 AR housing while the HX40 had a 0.84 AR housing also being a "P" trim.

Both were used with a 1 bar WG spring. I can't help the boost creep of the 60-1.

There is a difference between the "open" and "divided" housings, but the AR remained very close if you wanted to state a variable.
Old 04-16-2014, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Cory, I really like this turbo calculator because of the wide range of compressor maps it has:



Squirrel Performance



I punched in some numbers where I guessed your engine was at. Like 3.2L, 1.4bar 6300 RPM, intercooler etc. Really excellent results for the BW S300 series! They didn't have the S366 specifically.







As the other posters said before, the HX-40 is too small for your engine:







The 60-1 is a good size, but it is loosing efficiency at 1.4 bar:







Cool build!
Hello Mike, yes, used Squirrel before for data. Great website.

If you wanted to recalculate, I'm a 3.4 turning to 6500. Honestly, the HX40 doesn't want to stop at 6500, I bet it'd do 7000 before running out of breath, but I rather not even though I have ARP rod bolts. I have those dumb 9mm rod bolts.....

After talking with you guys, it seems the S366 is a must!!
Old 04-16-2014, 06:16 AM
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I see 3.4L 6500 rpm. So that pushes the data points to the right further.



I'm no expert, but my preference is to optimize for the top end. So I would go with a little larger compressor. But as the others pointed out, it is possible to run into trouble at lower RPMs if the compressor is too big.

Did any one point out the common work-around? That's to use a programmable boost controller to limit boost at lower RPMs, to avoid surge.
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Old 04-16-2014, 06:34 AM
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I doubt I'll have that issue as even with a 1.4 bar springs, I'm only seeing .6 bar of boost in 1st. Now, running with a larger turbo like the S366 I suspect will be laggier and will not surge.
Old 04-16-2014, 07:03 AM
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What cams do you have? Do you have a boost controller or just the spring? I suspect that "P" trim is killing you.

Last edited by GJF; 04-16-2014 at 07:53 AM..
Old 04-16-2014, 07:49 AM
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BC is not hooked up. I have 1 bar or 1.4 bar springs. Going back to 1 bar for the BW S366.

You don't think "O" will kill top end?
Old 04-16-2014, 08:02 AM
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Not at the power level your at now. You should be hitting full boost in first. If I were drag racing only with a two step, retard box and a line lock You can get away with a "P" trim. Or on a long endurance race with no sprint sections. You want the the turbo to light as fast as possible and not run out of steam. Unfortunately you have exceeded the performance the 60-1 and the HX40 can provide. you have too big of a turbine wheel and too small of a compressor section for your current optimum output. With what you have into your setup your doing a hell of a job. Never ever heard someone complaining about making too much power....
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87 911 Carrera platform
Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-16-2014, 09:48 AM
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Hmmm, 58mm on the turbine side? Debating going .70 AR with the P trim or consider the O. What AR do you think with an O? I haven't any data with an O to use....
Old 04-16-2014, 04:06 PM
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