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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Holset HX40 on a 3.4L results (LONG)

Thought I'd share my experience with the Holset HX40 on my 3.4L. I have poured hours of time searching the internet for comparable engines (since we are a small group with limited sample size) with different turbos trying to get a good set of data points to fall back on, when or if I were to buy another turbo. Just trying to give back to whomever may need another set of data points to base their decision on, on the exhaustive search for answers.

But first off, I have a Carrera 3.2 converted to 3.4, so although it shares the same platform as a 930, I have different heads (41mm intake ports), headers (1 5/8" with T4 flange), and intake. Most of you guys run SC cams, so my factory 3.2 cams are the exact same specs.

Holset's are not exact bolt ons, but you can easily machine a Garrett style turbine housing in a lathe in a couple of hours. I've done 2 of them myself easily. The Holset CHRA is a tad bigger in most of the dimensions over the Garrett's, so you simply take out a little meat on a few surfaces.

Now, for comparisons sake, I had a 60-1 HiFi previously. This is a 60mm compressor (equivalent to a K27 size?) with a smaller diameter compressor housing limiting about 5-10% of total airflow over the standard 60-1. The turbine is a "P" trim (65mm exducer) using a 0.81 A/R "open" housing.

With this turbo and the factory G50 using a 1 bar TiAL F46 WG, I made the following max boost per gear (reviewing datalogs):
1st - 4.5lbs/0.3bar
2nd - 12lbs/0.8bar
3rd - 14.7lbs/1.0bar
4th - 17lbs/1.2bar (boost creep due to elephant trunk WG circuit)

The car made 431whp around 1.2 bar of boost from the PO. In the 1/4 mile (for performance measurements sake), I managed a 12.4 @ 124 MPH best. Really slow elapsed time compared to the MPH due to lack of boost in the early gears and general lag.

Now the Holset. There are mainly 3 common versions of the HX40; 60mm 6-blade, 60mm 7-blade, and 58mm 8-blade. The 1st 2 are usually the most sought after. I have the 8-blade, 58mm (2mm smaller than the previous 60-1 HiFi); so pretty much the smallest, least flowing HX40 available and least desirable.

HX40's too use a "P" trim turbine. So, this is a somewhat apples to apples comparison. I machined a 0.84 A/R divided Garrett style housing and mounted it up. I maintained the 1 bar spring in the WG and tried it out. Initial results were that the car felt slower. It spooled around a 1000 RPM sooner to 1 bar, but it just didn't have the wallop/sledgehammer in the midrange. Hmmmm, I was little bummed, since I'd seen so many big hp builds.

So, reading and reading and reading more, I realized, this newer style compressor just needs to pushed harder to get the airflow needed to get back the missing power. The 60-1's are pretty much out of breath by 20 PSI (on ~3L engines), but a Holset does not really start to breath until at least 20 PSI, maybe even 25 (people have pushed these to 45 PSI!). So, I bought the biggest springs you can buy for the TiAL which are 1.4 bar. And wow, what a difference!

Where the car would normally feel like it ran out of breath with the 60-1, the Holset seems to keep pulling harder and harder. Very linear power delivery.

Reviewing datalogs, I get the following boost levels per gear:

1st - 9lbs/0.6bar
2nd - 15lbs/1.0bar
3rd - 17lbs/1.2bar
4th - 21lbs/1.4 bar

So, I don't have dyno sheet for this new configuration, but I can tell it makes a decent amount of extra torque due to the car squatting really hard in the 1st-3rd gears. Also, I reduced my 1/4 mile times to 12.0 and increased the MPH to 129.

One thing I've noticed about these higher flowing, modern compressors, are they come on to boost from my experience with a far linear feeling powerband. The older design compressors that seem to be out of breath up top seem to hit really hard, then taper off. I only have my Holset and my friends GT35R on a 965 to compare to though.

He too had a T66 (66mm) turbo with a "P" trim that hit really hard at 1 bar, but once he put the GT35R on, the car just pulled more like a naturally aspirated car; harder and harder to redline, but without the major sledgehammer to the back.

Next, I am going with the Borg-Warner S366 (66mm). This is a 830hp capable turbo that supposedly spools closer to a 62 to 60mm turbo of yesteryears. Although I'll never reach the capability of it's compressor and will be going backwards with slower spooling, I don't mind since the engine will see far less backpressure and far cooler inlet temps under boost. This will be good for bigger tracks I plan on hitting one day. I don't want a turbo that is instantly in boost since it will heat up big time on a big track in South Texas temps.

I hope to have a comparison of this bad boy soon!

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Cory - '87 C3.2 (3.4, stock 3.2 heads, cams, intake, with 75mm Mustang TB) Guards/Blk - turbos new to old 1). Borg Warner S366 (66mm comp/73mm turb/0.91 T4 divided ~1.4 bar), 2). Holset HX40 8-blade (58mm/"P" trim 0.84 T4 divided 1.4 bar), 1/4 mile 12.02 @ 129 MPH (street tires), 3). Turbonetics 60-1 HiFi (60mm/"P" trim 0.81 A/R T4 open 1.2 bar), 431whp - MegaSquirt II/EDIS ignition/80lb inj
Old 04-14-2014, 07:45 PM
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I get to .8 bar in second (915) and the tires let loose even with an LSD. What tire/sizes are you running? LSD?
Old 04-14-2014, 08:57 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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No LSD. 285 Sumitomo's.
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Cory - '87 C3.2 (3.4, stock 3.2 heads, cams, intake, with 75mm Mustang TB) Guards/Blk - turbos new to old 1). Borg Warner S366 (66mm comp/73mm turb/0.91 T4 divided ~1.4 bar), 2). Holset HX40 8-blade (58mm/"P" trim 0.84 T4 divided 1.4 bar), 1/4 mile 12.02 @ 129 MPH (street tires), 3). Turbonetics 60-1 HiFi (60mm/"P" trim 0.81 A/R T4 open 1.2 bar), 431whp - MegaSquirt II/EDIS ignition/80lb inj
Old 04-14-2014, 09:29 PM
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Interesting read. I'm learning.
My gt30r is a good match for my small 3.0, it hits hard and seems to pull through 6k(that's where I stop). And I get a quick lick of .8bar in 1st if I'm not mistaken. It's really hard to tell with all the drama. But I dont go full throttle either.
When fresh the turbo would overwhelm the wg but has settled some.
Thanks for your knowledge, interesting about cooler temps with larger flowing turbos.
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Last edited by quattrorunner; 04-15-2014 at 08:51 AM..
Old 04-15-2014, 12:17 AM
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Tippy, nice write up but is it really apples to apples? Boosting to 1.4 instead of 1.0 regardless of turbo is of course going to be noticeable. You're now running almost 100% more boost than stock..
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:15 AM
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Nice write up
CIS?
Interested with your findings.. between the BW-unit vs others...
Is the S366-BW- size like a K-29??
The S200SX- sounds very interesting...

I know just playing around in MEX-last weekend I tweaking my fuel HKS-AIC-AFRS-on some roll-ons with my 7006- my boost hits 15psi--is rock steady in my 915- 3rd gear at 65mph- at 60mph--its approx. 14-.0-14.5psi.. 4th gear--throttle pinned--full boost 15psi---5th full boost 15psi--holding steady and not loosing steam (not let up) to 6000rpm-msd6al cutoff.. After doing 7-8 runs with tweaking-- A big dodge truck caught my attention...He started following me at cruz-speed- 50-55mph.. Did 2 long runs with me... I know aero was not in his favor... My car kept pulling on top end..I WAS GONE- After runs...he came on my left side--thumps up.... went around to my right side then...another thumps up .....he then exited the on the right---another thumps up ))
I think he likes old school porsches now.

Last edited by wjfk32; 04-15-2014 at 06:42 AM..
Old 04-15-2014, 06:35 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Tippy, nice write up but is it really apples to apples? Boosting to 1.4 instead of 1.0 regardless of turbo is of course going to be noticeable. You're now running almost 100% more boost than stock..
I did run it at 1 bar, and it felt down on power; hence turning it up to 1.4.
Old 04-15-2014, 08:42 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Nice write up

CIS?

Interested with your findings.. between the BW-unit vs others...

Is the S366-BW- size like a K-29??

The S200SX- sounds very interesting...



I know just playing around in MEX-last weekend I tweaking my fuel HKS-AIC-AFRS-on some roll-ons with my 7006- my boost hits 15psi--is rock steady in my 915- 3rd gear at 65mph- at 60mph--its approx. 14-.0-14.5psi.. 4th gear--throttle pinned--full boost 15psi---5th full boost 15psi--holding steady and not loosing steam (not let up) to 6000rpm-msd6al cutoff.. After doing 7-8 runs with tweaking-- A big dodge truck caught my attention...He started following me at cruz-speed- 50-55mph.. Did 2 long runs with me... I know aero was not in his favor... My car kept pulling on top end..I WAS GONE- After runs...he came on my left side--thumps up.... went around to my right side then...another thumps up .....he then exited the on the right---another thumps up ))

I think he likes old school porsches now.
Very cool, those Cummins can make serious power!

I'm MegaSquirt EFI currently and originally Motronic with Protomotive chip.
Old 04-15-2014, 08:47 AM
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Big turbos are nice but that's why I love twins. Any boost you want in any gear.
Old 04-15-2014, 09:00 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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^^^ Yep, but I like the turbo only spooling when I'm deep into the throttle. Part throttle, I rather not so the inlet temps stay in check over a 20+ minute session in 100* temps on a big track.
Old 04-15-2014, 09:41 AM
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When the turbo or turbos are sized properly there is no run away charge temps (heat soak). The HX40 is a upgrade but it still doesn't map well to your engine. Even for a mild Cummins, they are too small. Excellent write up though. The HX40 would work on a low boost combination. When you start pushing it the charge temps will run away.
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Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-15-2014, 03:13 PM
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It's very decent of you to post your real world results. It's sometimes a crap shoot to get what you want from a turbo because there a many combinations out there, many shelf brands. I've certainly been down that path on bmw motors, going from turbo to turbo, modern stuff that was very linear in boost response, not like the old school sledge-hammer effect, which I personally like. For CIS, I love the 7006, as some have posted here, a real all around turbo that just seems to get better and better with every run. As a side note on custom jobs: I was up in Alabama for four days doing some work on a friends turbo car. We needed a turbo, like fast, and on a Saturday at that. We called around and found a guy about twenty minutes away who said, "no problem." So we went down and picked up a brand new custom made turbo that he built the same day! The guy makes his own turbine housings and compressor housings! No machining like some do. He specializes in custom twin housings for GTR's so as to keep the warranty with the same numbers cast into the housings (sort of stealth with bigger wheels for another 100hp on those cars). He said he can put any wheel into a KKK turbo. He can shape housings in any configuration because he controls the molds. Very impressive and very reasonable. We got a brand new custom turbo with gt compressor wheel and P trim turbine for around $600. Turbo is rock solid. I might play round with wheels and different compressor housing just for fun -- keeping the same turbo, that is, and always able to put it back to original.
Old 04-15-2014, 04:37 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
When the turbo or turbos are sized properly there is no run away charge temps (heat soak). The HX40 is a upgrade but it still doesn't map well to your engine. Even for a mild Cummins, they are too small. Excellent write up though. The HX40 would work on a low boost combination. When you start pushing it the charge temps will run away.
Surprisingly, I saw no extra heat generated going from 1.0 to 1.4 bar.

What size turbo(s) do you suggest? A modern 60mm seems to way outflow, say a 60-1.

Curious what you think.
Old 04-15-2014, 05:47 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
It's very decent of you to post your real world results. It's sometimes a crap shoot to get what you want from a turbo because there a many combinations out there, many shelf brands. I've certainly been down that path on bmw motors, going from turbo to turbo, modern stuff that was very linear in boost response, not like the old school sledge-hammer effect, which I personally like. For CIS, I love the 7006, as some have posted here, a real all around turbo that just seems to get better and better with every run. As a side note on custom jobs: I was up in Alabama for four days doing some work on a friends turbo car. We needed a turbo, like fast, and on a Saturday at that. We called around and found a guy about twenty minutes away who said, "no problem." So we went down and picked up a brand new custom made turbo that he built the same day! The guy makes his own turbine housings and compressor housings! No machining like some do. He specializes in custom twin housings for GTR's so as to keep the warranty with the same numbers cast into the housings (sort of stealth with bigger wheels for another 100hp on those cars). He said he can put any wheel into a KKK turbo. He can shape housings in any configuration because he controls the molds. Very impressive and very reasonable. We got a brand new custom turbo with gt compressor wheel and P trim turbine for around $600. Turbo is rock solid. I might play round with wheels and different compressor housing just for fun -- keeping the same turbo, that is, and always able to put it back to original.
Um, that is fudging cool!

Would love to experiment too....
Old 04-15-2014, 05:48 PM
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Out of the T series a T61 suits a 3.3-3.5 liter dead square in its map. Incidentally a GT35 is literally the same profile as a T61 but In a ball bearing configuration. It is my opinion that although a ball bearing turbo seems to handle thrust better than a journal bearing from all the hype I don't feel there is enough data to support it. Some claim there is less resistance with the ball bearing. Still there is only claims. Typically, after a comparison with lesser performing turbo. I only use on all my personal engines journal bearings, I've to this day never lost 1 to bearing or thrust failure. I run over 60psi on my diesel and over 25psi from time to time on my slant. A 60-1 back in the day was THE turbo it really paved the way as far as turbo performance and really works well still to this day but..... A 60-1 does not match to a 3.3-3.5 properly, but it does perform well. The 66mm your looking at will be interesting as it will be a top end performer, just curious on how well the turbine section will delegate the exhaust flow. I'll be curiously watching.
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:15 PM
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You know, I considered rebuilding my 60-1 and put a divided housing on it, but the wheels kissed the housings and the comp wheel ingested something with the PO's requiring replacement. Too much money for an older design.

You say a T61 is a good match, but an HX40 is not. An HX40 6/7-blade is 60mm turbo that flows 60lbs/minute. I don't see the difference? More than likely too, they both share "P" trims.
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Cory - '87 C3.2 (3.4, stock 3.2 heads, cams, intake, with 75mm Mustang TB) Guards/Blk - turbos new to old 1). Borg Warner S366 (66mm comp/73mm turb/0.91 T4 divided ~1.4 bar), 2). Holset HX40 8-blade (58mm/"P" trim 0.84 T4 divided 1.4 bar), 1/4 mile 12.02 @ 129 MPH (street tires), 3). Turbonetics 60-1 HiFi (60mm/"P" trim 0.81 A/R T4 open 1.2 bar), 431whp - MegaSquirt II/EDIS ignition/80lb inj
Old 04-15-2014, 06:35 PM
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If you were looking for a better turbo from a Cummins then a HE351 compressor section with the turbine section from the HX40.
It's the flow characteristics from the turbos map that dictates the performance. The flow rates peak flow can look great, but if the engines displacement and RPM range doesn't place well in the map, then performance will suffer. Excessive surging and turbo over speed will surely wipe out the turbo. The T61 although old school is still a good performer, the GT35 is it's replacement. Now we are seeing the new BW stuff coming out and the impeller design is enhanced even further. I'll have to look at the 300 series for maps and see how they map out for the gas motors.
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Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-15-2014, 07:07 PM
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GJF,
Very interesting points you bring up. My 88 930 is completely stock with Cali emissions and I am going to (at some point, maybe soon), upgrade headers, turbo, exhaust, WG with a higher boost spring. I am not planning on upgrading to EFI. Trying to keep it basically bolt ons. I was thinking K27 or 27/29 or a GT35, but only because they seem popular here. This is for street only and looking for earlier spool up and of course more power through the RPM range. I can totally understand that how the parts work together with the current system is more effective that getting a bunch of parts that, while they are good on their own, don't necessarily work well together. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, as they say. How do you know what turbo matches well for the kind of configuration I am thinking of doing?
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:20 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
If you were looking for a better turbo from a Cummins then a HE351 compressor section with the turbine section from the HX40.

It's the flow characteristics from the turbos map that dictates the performance. The flow rates peak flow can look great, but if the engines displacement and RPM range doesn't place well in the map, then performance will suffer. Excessive surging and turbo over speed will surely wipe out the turbo. The T61 although old school is still a good performer, the GT35 is it's replacement. Now we are seeing the new BW stuff coming out and the impeller design is enhanced even further. I'll have to look at the 300 series for maps and see how they map out for the gas motors.
IIRC, my HX40 8-blade has the same efficiency at 1.4 bar as the 60-1 HiFi @ 1 bar.

At only 1 bar, the 60-1 out flowed the HX40, hence the reason I went 1.4 to recover airflow. It worked and added no additional heat to the inlet according to my datalogs.

Matter of fact, the car picked up a noticeable increase in power too. I expected it to just match up to the old power, but it definitely added more with an additional 5 MPH in the 1/4 mile using a 1" taller tire!
Old 04-15-2014, 08:01 PM
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Since you are staying with CIS then you don't want to go overboard with too much turbo. I don't do any work on CIS cars at all. Chris at Turbo Kraft would be my first thought to inquire when it comes to proper stages for CIS. There are a bunch of members here that are really sharp with CIS injection as well.
Back to you question on how to pick a turbo based on components and power level wanted. This is dictated by engine displacement and RPM's.
Understanding how to read turbo maps allows you to see how your engine references itself on a given turbos map and how it's manners will be. The displacement dictates where it's placement would be on the horizontal scale of the map. And the RPMs dictate where it's placement would be on the vertical scale. The more modifications the higher you can extend the vertical,scale the least amount of mods the closer it needs to stay in the map and away from the surge line. If you just want the easy way out with a good recipe...... Get a good set of headers Rarley8 or Turbo Kraft, a Gt35 turbocharger, the biggest intercooler you can get. You can't over intercooler these cars and all the fuel mods you can do to a CIS system. Upgrade the ignition with a MSD 6AL and compatible coil.
Understand there are a good selection of turbos out there but there are only a few that closely will map out to a given engine. There are vast numbers of impeller sizes but only a select few the performance world selects to build a lineup of performance turbos. All OEM turbo components are originally of some sort of industrial turbo, typically off a diesel.
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87 911 Carrera platform
Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 04-15-2014, 08:16 PM
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