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help with alignment and ride height

Hi all I just went thru a suspension rebuild and I'm having alignment issues and could use some advice and help. My car is a 1982 Turbo that I went thru and rebuilt the suspension, 22 & 30 mm torsion bars, poly-bronze bushings front and rear mono balls front and rear, re-valved shocks, ball joints, spindles raised 30mm and Elephant Racing's racing bump steer kit.
basically I lowered the car 1/2" lower than European spec as per Bruce Andersen's book, 24 1/2 inches from ground to fender lip on the front and 24 inches in the rear (Bruce's book said 25 and 24 1/2). I had the car corner balanced already. The shop I have doing the alignment is having an issue trying to get the alignment correct. When they get the camber correct the toe will not come into spec. Right now the rear is -2.4 camber and .31 toe on the left rear and -2.2 camber and .41 toe on the right, I don't remember what the front ended up camber wise but I was told the front camber would not be an issue, the loss of adjustment for toe is the front problem. The guy doing the alignment (highly recommended by local PCA racers) was trying for -1 front camber and -1.5 in the rear I don't remember the toe.
there was an additional issue with the front toe that wont adjust anymore and it's some thing like 1/4" too much toe in. The tie rods are screwed in all the way into the tie rod end (I have Elephant Racing's racing bump steer kit), anyone ever run into this issue before? I'll probably end up buying new tie rods?
Does anyone have any suggestions on alignment settings for a lowered car? I was wanting a street/track combo alignment. Should I expect more negative camber than the alignment tech is trying to dial in?
Thanks for the help, Frank
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1982 930, K-27, BL adj. WUR, Rarlyl8 Headers and Hooligan muffler, MSD 6, 22 and 30mm torsion bars, poly bronze bushings 30mm raised spindles and custom valved Bilstein shocks (by Elephant Racing), monoballs front and rear (by Rennline), Alton 17" Fuchs, Fred Cook fuse panel
Old 05-15-2014, 07:57 PM
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If you only dropped it 1/2 inch, do you need a bump steer kit? Since the kit actually raises the inside ends of the tie rods, maybe it raised it past horizontal, which I think would pull the toe in some more and you lost some adjustability so you cant get it back to spec? Just a guess.
I lowered my ride height to about 24.5 all around and the alignment/camber/toe was no problem in the front, but the rear camber was maxed out so that it couldn't get to exactly where they wanted it, but it was pretty close so that it should be no big deal, I'm told.
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:38 PM
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I put elephant racing polybronze bushings and rennline monoballs front and rear in mine too, along with Tarret spherical bearing adjustable drop links on the rear sway bar. I also put in new ball joints and tie rod ends in the front and prothane urethane bushings on the front sway bar. Bilstein sports in the back and Bilstein RSR valved inserts in the front.
I do all my own alignment adjustments in my driveway and I've tried different amounts of rear camber from a lot of negative that wears the inside edge of the rear tires fast to just a little negative that works well with 315/30x18 rear tires and is wearing them evenly.

Anyway, I have a lot of adjustment in or out on the front tie rods while they are set to maximum negative camber with the front stress bar pulling the tops of the struts together as much as possible and maximum caster with the tops pushed back as far as possible and just a little toe in, like around 1/16" so I don't know why your tie rod ends are screwed all the way in to the tie rods.

All I can suggest with out seeing yours is get some new original equipment front turbo tie rods if there's something not right with yours. You can also buy offset front ball joints from elephant racing that will widen the front track while creating more negative front camber and they will make you have to screw the front tie rods ends out to keep the front toe correct.

For the track a little toe out makes turn in quicker but for the street that makes the car twitchy and uncomfortable to drive, especially on the interstate. A little bit of front toe in makes street driving more comfortable. The rears should toe in a little too.

Here's some stock alignment specs I saved and maybe they can be of some help. Mine are set with a little more front caster, more like 7 or 7.5*
The more front caster you have the more the front outer wheel goes to negative camber during a turn and that reduces understeer.
With more caster the front wheels want to stay going straight kinda like a bicycle does with it's steeply raked front forks. The steering becomes a little stiffer entering a turn but I'm used to it and don't mind it.

Old 05-15-2014, 09:04 PM
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What bump steer kit did you get? The one that spaces the rack higher, or did you get the one with the shafts-n-spacers & outer tie rods?
I have done a similar set-up on my car but with the front spindles raised 40mm & RSR control arm bushings & rear spring plate bushings.
My car is WAYYY lower than yours, and alignment was not an issue, but I did go with the full bump steer kit I mentioned above with the spacers, shafts, outer tie-rods.
If you just did the rack spacer, maybe that is your issue???

Mark
Old 05-17-2014, 07:02 PM
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no rack spacers. I have Elephant Racing's racing bump steer kit that has spacers, shaft, matching tie rod ends and an additional welded on bracket. I'm thinking there must be some issue with the tie rods, anyway I ordered new ones since that was the only thing not replaced in the front (well other than the steering rack). I also wend a head and raised the rear 1/2". I'll see how that works.
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1982 930, K-27, BL adj. WUR, Rarlyl8 Headers and Hooligan muffler, MSD 6, 22 and 30mm torsion bars, poly bronze bushings 30mm raised spindles and custom valved Bilstein shocks (by Elephant Racing), monoballs front and rear (by Rennline), Alton 17" Fuchs, Fred Cook fuse panel
Old 05-17-2014, 08:05 PM
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corner bal

very interesting thread... I have to say I am going a little different route noting what Quack has done which is way cool stance . But with my driving style and Chuck's advise at ER we set up 33mm rear and 23mm front , noting that I have removed a lot of weight from the car . Yes the same 40mm drop spindle and bump steer kit , but no rack spacer's... and I will be pushing the height limit off the ground very low, race car low . I will be taking my car to a shop to have corner balance and alignment so advice is well needed before "TurboPLOOOZA"

Kozmo
Old 05-17-2014, 08:20 PM
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so the front toe issue was due to 2- 7mm thick spacers, I assume to prevent tire rub which is odd because the car was not lowered and had 205 tires on the front. I'm going to go ahead and install new tie rods anyway.
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1982 930, K-27, BL adj. WUR, Rarlyl8 Headers and Hooligan muffler, MSD 6, 22 and 30mm torsion bars, poly bronze bushings 30mm raised spindles and custom valved Bilstein shocks (by Elephant Racing), monoballs front and rear (by Rennline), Alton 17" Fuchs, Fred Cook fuse panel
Old 05-18-2014, 09:52 AM
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well maybe not, reading it sounds like those are stock washers. back to the drawing board
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1982 930, K-27, BL adj. WUR, Rarlyl8 Headers and Hooligan muffler, MSD 6, 22 and 30mm torsion bars, poly bronze bushings 30mm raised spindles and custom valved Bilstein shocks (by Elephant Racing), monoballs front and rear (by Rennline), Alton 17" Fuchs, Fred Cook fuse panel
Old 05-18-2014, 10:01 AM
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I just did this, and the toe will be all screwed up unless you have quite a bit of camber. My setup is almost identical to yours and I was at exactly that height. It rubbed inside the fenders tops like crazy. I raised it to 24.75 in the back and it made all the difference and looks awesome, I just spaced the rear tire out 6mm to fill out the gaps. Plus I could get the toe and camber just right. The front I raise .5 inch because there is not a lot you can do up there. If you drop it, it toes bad.

Old 05-18-2014, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovie Ghoulie View Post
I just did this, and the toe will be all screwed up unless you have quite a bit of camber. My setup is almost identical to yours and I was at exactly that height. It rubbed inside the fenders tops like crazy. I raised it to 24.75 in the back and it made all the difference and looks awesome, I just spaced the rear tire out 6mm to fill out the gaps. Plus I could get the toe and camber just right. The front I raise .5 inch because there is not a lot you can do up there. If you drop it, it toes bad.

When you dropped it what other mods did you do to the front ?

Kozmo
Old 05-18-2014, 11:57 AM
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ride hieght

Mark (Quack-Quack) maybe you have some good pics showing your ride height...

Kozmo
Old 05-18-2014, 12:01 PM
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keyword from quack: raised spindles.

I have factory spindles, but adjustable plates, von shocks, big Tbars, and the ER bump steer kit (not just the washers either).
Old 05-18-2014, 12:24 PM
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I pretty much took good advise from Mark with his setup ... but in the end called ER and talked with Chuck great guy put me on the right track . Yes mine is a street car but I'm a track junky so performance is more my style not comfort .
That is the big reason I to am looking for good advise , great thread to learn from.

Kozmo
Old 05-18-2014, 01:00 PM
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I'll try to accomodate....

Well I had some computer issues, but I pulled this shot from my garage computer.



My suspension goes like this,
23mm front 30mm rear T-bars
22mm front & rear sway bars Tarret
Von shocks street level 3 both front & rear, valved for the above T-bar sizes
Elephant racing full weld on bump steer kit
Front spindles raised 40mm
RSR front control arm bushing system
RSR rear spring plate bushing system
WEVO weld on rear sway bar mounts
Front strut tower brace
Fikse 5S wheels 17" x 8.5" front, 18" x 11" rears, 255-40's & 295-35's B.F.G. kdw2's
Hawk SPS front pads, Pagid black rear pads
Car weight 1/2 tank gas 2700 lbs. even

Alignment spec.'s,
corner balanced
-2.5 rear camber
-.9 front camber
front toe .06 deg each tire
rear toe .1 deg each tire
ride height real low, well below any normal persons taste

Hope this helps you guys out!

Mark
Old 05-18-2014, 02:05 PM
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Mark ;

If I can get my car lower then yours and I have to agree that's pretty low , and still keep -1.5* in the front -2.5* in the back ouch ! hell on the street but nice on track . Would I need to get some max camber adjusters for the rear ?

Kozmo
Old 05-19-2014, 04:04 PM
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Hey there Kozmo,

For the street, don't know if you can practically go any lower. I already cannot do any kind of speed bumps or steep driveway entrance or exit, parking garages are totally out of the question. High speed dips in the road will max out my suspension travel.

Not sure what you mean by "ouch" at -2.5 rear camber, maybe you are referring to tire wear. I get a solid 12K out of the rears, and about 20K out of the fronts. Perfectly fine tire wear, as the rears have gone through too many heat cycles at 12K anyway, so it's time to replace anyway.

The picture is a little deceptive, it makes it look like I have more clearance than I do, I have 2-1/4" ground clearance to the front valance lip. I've had it about 3/4" lower all around, and that was just plain STUPID LOW, couldn't drive it anywhere.

With this set-up the car is rock steady, tracks perfectly, the ride is decent but firm, not at all harsh. Turn in is great, feedback is MOST excellent!

I've tried several other set-ups leading up to this one, all were compromises in one form or another.

Talk to clint at RSR or Elephant racing they will both lead you in the right direction, all you have to do is be HONEST with what you want out of the car & what you are WILLING to compromise on.

One thing is absolutely for sure...you can't have it all. Real world drivability, stability, ultimate handling, ride height, creature comforts....pick any 2, that's the best your going to get.

My .02 cents worth.

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 05-19-2014 at 06:02 PM..
Old 05-19-2014, 05:54 PM
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I love getting real world answers ... as much as I want a race car , street driving like you say is the compromise . So I have talked with Chuck at ER and we came up with a setup it will be the C/B and alignment that has to be the choice. Does everyone still use "the fender lip height method " and if you do what is yours ? other then rear T/B size I think we pretty much have the same setup. Mine might be lighter then yours so much crap was damaged or rotted when I bought this car that it was easier to just put light weight stuff in so I could drive it this century ...LMAO

Kozmo
Old 05-19-2014, 07:03 PM
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I gave up on the fender lip measurement a long time ago. I suppose I could go out and measure it, but my garage floor is not level, and I really don't care what that # is, so.....

I think I'll just stay oblivious to what it is, and just be happy I have the car JUST where I like it. What's in a number anyway.

Mark
Old 05-19-2014, 07:25 PM
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Thanks for all the help and info, I have a couple of options. I don't think my front is all that much too low; however the back seemed to have settled some and was too low. I was told to try the tie rods without the big washers and if the tie rod will tighten up in the rack go without the washer, or a thinner washer. Chuck at Elephant said his tire rub (prevention) kit is 4mm thick. I'm going to compare the new tie rods against the new and f there is no difference I'll probably go with Chucks kit, that would give me a 6mm reduction which is almost 1/4 inch that was needed. I have my next weekend to figure it out
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1982 930, K-27, BL adj. WUR, Rarlyl8 Headers and Hooligan muffler, MSD 6, 22 and 30mm torsion bars, poly bronze bushings 30mm raised spindles and custom valved Bilstein shocks (by Elephant Racing), monoballs front and rear (by Rennline), Alton 17" Fuchs, Fred Cook fuse panel
Old 05-19-2014, 07:29 PM
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Mark, is your toe- toe in or toe out?
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:31 PM
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