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I feel like we're being trolled...

Also, I installed the long neck garrettson on my car and it made a big difference. Full spool in 4th gear is now about 2700 rpm vs 3000 before and there is definitely more power.
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'86 930 Guards Red - EFI MS3Pro, 80lb inj, 3.4, GT35R, Tial 46, Bosch 044, B&B Headers, 3.2 carrera manifold, Turbokraft Full bay IC
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Old 05-25-2014, 08:32 AM
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GJF - Your car is amazing (understatement)...wow!

As to the comments made by TurboKraft Chris. Mercedes were also using almost identical Bosch CIS / mechanical injection all the way to 1991 in their S-Class flagship cars (W126 and R107 chassis), so Porsche is not the only guilty prestige marque out there.

I have repeated this so many time I feel like a broken record, but the factory intercooler was designed by a now defunct Austrian Fridge Manufacturer and there was no real hot weather testing done on this unit. How do I know this? I spoke to Porsche development engineer for the 930 about 10 years ago (now resides in the U.S). Notice the "rhomboid" core on the factory intercooler? That is a marginal attempt by Porsche to increase the airflow path from inlet to outlet thereby hoping to reduce the temperature

If you look at a factory intercooler next to a new modern core design, it is really quite primitive and undersized for a fairly large and powerful 6 cylinder that has "challenges" managing heat. Porsche should have continued to develop this unit from 1979 onwards but were too busy making handsome profits and had a complacent attitude to re-engineering and development (R&D).

I could write a paper on this stuff, as I have designed several intercoolers for my 930 (and for many other cars) using AutoCAD and then tested the thermal efficiency and pressure loss in the lab at work also against other manufacturers out there to see how my unit stacked-up.

The pictures below were taken over 9 years ago:
Stock vs B&B:


My first design (left) vs B&B:




My third design that is now on my car (3/4 bay, retains the A/C, retains the rhomboid core design, remove the O-rings, can be removed in 15 minutes and bar and plate aluminum core), unfortunately a poor picture:


Regards,
Yasin
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Old 05-25-2014, 08:35 AM
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962 962 is offline
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Thank-you GJF
Old 05-25-2014, 08:43 AM
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Robbie, your saying your configuration is stock then?
Your car was not designed for an Intercooler, why are you putting in an Intercooler then?
You wanted it so badly you turned your throttle body 90degrees in order to make it fit. Why would you add an inter cooler? Because Porsche did it? Great your right, Porsche did it. But to mod your Porsche in such a way for a crappy intercooler(it's well documented) is silly.

Fact is there really is more power from a more efficient Intercooler. Free power in the form of more dense cool air.
Porsche made a pretty cool inter cooler for the 964 turbo, was it heavier? Yup, Porsche made one heavier ooooooooooo boo to Porsche? No Porsche was smart to do that finally.

Robbie, an Intercooler makes any car more safe and reliable, not prone to failure. Cooler air is always better than hot air.

Robbie, I dont know if your angry or just trying to save face but stop. Your not sounding smart.
"I tell my wife this and she makes more sense. " from my favorite movie "raising Arizona".

To cap:
Adding the Intercooler is for why?
Ok. So why not add one that's better? Better than Porsche? Ok it's going to be larger, and more expensive than a used part from eBay I'm sure. But even if not larger footprint, thicker. This is how it's better, more area to cool the charged air and more efficient paths to make smooth the flow= larger.
Gee wiz dude!
Listen to these guys, they know what they're talking about.

Btw I'm concerned about your home brew throttle linkage. That will strand you I'd wager.

Btw my engine is the same as yours and the first few months with it I didn't run an intercooler. The back to back without and then with Intercooler showed me that there really is more power with an Intercooler even at low boost pressures.
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Last edited by quattrorunner; 05-25-2014 at 11:52 PM..
Old 05-25-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dos531 View Post
I feel like we're being trolled...

Also, I installed the long neck garrettson on my car and it made a big difference. Full spool in 4th gear is now about 2700 rpm vs 3000 before and there is definitely more power.
I hope you don't consider my sarcasm as trolling. I haven't been on the forums for a while.
Old 05-25-2014, 08:59 AM
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As I read this thread, I realize my aftermarket intercooler is probably going to choke my new 66mm turbo under higher boost.

Should I buy a stock 930 IC as I'm shooting for close to 700chp?

J/K.....
Old 05-25-2014, 08:59 AM
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Quote:

Quote de dos531



I feel like we're being trolled...



Also, I installed the long neck garrettson on my car and it made a big difference. Full spool in 4th gear is now about 2700 rpm vs 3000 before and there is definitely more power.

I hope you don't consider my sarcasm as trolling. I haven't been on the forums for a while.
He's talking about Rob.
Old 05-25-2014, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
He's talking about Rob.
bingo.
Old 05-25-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
Big Deal and two months later i bet the motor blew cos it made it unbalanced and unreliable

Show one thats been there for 200000 plus kays ONLY then you can say its as good as or better than factory !
Robby,
My 930 has 117k miles, almost all of those with an ANDIAL intercooler the original owner had ANDIAL install along with a K27 turbo back in 1988. ANDIAL, as you probably don't know, built some of Porsche's most successful race car motors back in the 70's and 80's. I doubt they would have installed an IC that was no better or worse than the stock IC. Of course, based on your previous posts, you'd probably tell me that the stock 3LDZ is better than a K27.
ZF
Old 05-25-2014, 09:42 AM
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As Corky Bell states, an intercooler requires no maintenance and will last longer than any car. Not his exact words, but making the point.
Old 05-25-2014, 10:09 AM
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slow&rusty GJF - Your car is amazing (understatement)...wow

Cooommmmoonnn, it's just like yours,but mine is faded!.... Real bad!,,,,, Love the tail pipes!!! Thx

962 Thank-you GJF

Anytime.
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Old 05-25-2014, 12:00 PM
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Guy's

Don't waste your time with this clown, just remember you can't fix stupid !!!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 05-25-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaman fu View Post
Robby,
My 930 has 117k miles, almost all of those with an ANDIAL intercooler the original owner had ANDIAL install along with a K27 turbo back in 1988. ANDIAL, as you probably don't know, built some of Porsche's most successful race car motors back in the 70's and 80's. I doubt they would have installed an IC that was no better or worse than the stock IC. Of course, based on your previous posts, you'd probably tell me that the stock 3LDZ is better than a K27.
ZF
As far as i know a Stock 3lDZ has NEVER detonated an engine, so in that regard yes id say it is better as it is safer if something is amiss in other areas of the engine,.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cole930 View Post
Guy's

Don't waste your time with this clown, just remember you can't fix stupid !!!!!!

Cole
Im sorry i offend you Cole, maybe i am stupid that is why i post my thoughts here , to understand , hopefully without personal attacks.

Ive been rebuilding my 930 by myself with no mechanical knowledge, everything from the engine to the wiring and body, i cant be that stupid if the car still runs, or maybe stupid people repair 930's ?

So If that is the case then it is another testament to how well the Porsche House built their cars and engines because even stupid people can fix them and i do find that amazing
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
As I read this thread, I realize my aftermarket intercooler is probably going to choke my new 66mm turbo under higher boost.

Should I buy a stock 930 IC as I'm shooting for close to 700chp?

J/K.....
From what ive learnt for that much HP the consensus is you would need to retain the larger capacity intercooler,

But i cant say for sure,

I do question however if a small size Factory IC maintain a higher velocity to the TB? therefore a quicker spoolup for whatever Turbo your feeding it?
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:30 PM
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Robbie, please do continue reading posts here. They're very valuable. There are some very knowledgable fellas here, some of which you've insulted already.
My suggestion to you is to use the search function, then don't question everything you read. I'd say most of what you've read is typed by smart experienced people that know more than you do. If not, you'd know anyway.
I'm still not sure we're not being punked but in the interest of good neighborly help Ill byte and try and guide you.
Just read and learn. Don't question well thought out posts which have charts and diagrams to show increases or capacities as they're probably valuable, well thought out and tested data that will help others find efficiencies and improvements to their cars.
We are human, we get better and better as we lean more, that's one reason we know the good and bad parts to get or avoid.
Read posts and take them in, quit questioning everything. Learn from them.
Your not smarter, but some day you might be as smart and experienced. Until then, quit posting things. It's for your best interest. If you have a question ask, but don't post things cause they make you look silly/dumb.
So, any questions will be answered promptly, unless you keep insulting the intelligence of some valuable assets we have at our disposal.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattrorunner View Post
Robbie, your saying your configuration is stock then?
Your car was not designed for an Intercooler, why are you putting in an Intercooler then?
You wanted it so badly you turned your throttle body 90degrees in order to make it fit. Why would you do that? Because Porsche did it? Great your right, Porsche did it. But to mod your Porsche in such a way for a crappy intercooler(it's well documented) is silly.

Fact is there really is more power from a more efficient Intercooler. Free power in the form of more dense cool air.
Porsche made a pretty cool inter cooler for the 964 turbo, was it heavier? Yup, Porsche made one heavier ooooooooooo boo to Porsche? No Porsche was smart to do that finally.

Robbie, an Intercooler makes any car more safe and reliable, not prone to failure. Cooler air is always better than hot air.


Robbie, I dont know if your angry or just trying to save face but stop. Your not sounding smart.
"I tell my wife this and she makes more sense. " from my favorite movie "raising Arizona".

To cap:
Adding the Intercooler is for why?
Ok. So why not add one that's better? Better than Porsche? Ok it's going to be larger, and more expensive than a used part from eBay I'm sure. But even if not larger footprint, thicker. This is how it's better, more area to cool the charged air and more efficient paths to make smooth the flow= larger.
Gee wiz dude!
Listen to these guys, they know what they're talking about.

Btw I'm concerned about your home brew throttle linkage. That will strand you I'd wager.

Btw my engine is the same as yours and the first few months with it I didn't run an intercooler. The back to back without and then with Intercooler showed me that there really is more power with an Intercooler even at low boost pressures.
I completely Agree with you.
My Engine is Porsche Factory Stock
The IC i added is a Porsche Factory Stock IC

I didnt say i was using Period Original parts only,

I am upgrading my car with later model Porsche Parts because i believe in them and their reliability and because Porsche has constantly strived to make better their cars with these parts, so im using them and making a Euro light car with Factory Porsche Parts albeit later versions.

Ive added late model PORSCHE TURBO Brakes
Ive added late model PORSCHE TURBO Intercooler
Ive added late model PORSCHE TURBO Intake Manifold
Ive added late model PORSCHE TURBO BOV Housing and assembly
Ive added late model PORSCHE TURBO front fender with sunken foglights
Ive added a hardtop Roof cos the PO turned it into a CAB so ive made it into a coupe again

Not bad for a stupid person i think

Ive lso removed Porsche Parts because of what people have said here because of their low reliability or just being a waste of space with no real world benefit, in my topographical location and weather temperatures,

like my Cold Start Injector and Decel Valve

My IC i added with the help of many posts here with the pros and cons and i concurred with the masses that adding an IC is good even though i added mine for different reasons (not more power) i added mine for reliability because at quarter of a million kays i want only the best for my engine, but i have kept with using only Porsche Parts because mainly my car is a Porsche if for no other reason,

If Porsche (and possibly Andial after being made aware of their close racing relaionship) were to make a Full Bay intercooler that i could buy for under $200 i would most likely buy it, but they dont so i didnt.

All Porsche Parts.. if i said previously otherwise then it was a mistake on my part and i apologize if i have confused anyone here.

This is whole Forum is about the Porsche Turbo Car whether someone has a 911 that they have added forced induction or a factory 930 , or a 930 that many want to upgrade in their search for that more addictive power, i dont hold any prejuduces to any car owners here, my only gripes are when someone says a particular thing is a be all and end all because of a common agreement,

Its those ideas i question and challenge because i need to know and i am curious as to why it is this way, I seem stupid to many with my questions and thoughts but believe me when my car is finished with all its elastic ties and wooden rulers and bent screwdrivers, and it works and works well and looks even better im sure i wont look so stupid then,

But when Turbokraft designed their intercooler they did so with a mission in mind, more hp right?
I question if its the best, because i need to know want to know and why.

My home brew Throttle Linkage is the original Porsche one that was already in the car, i reuse it so its fine

for those who say i am stupid,
I was Senior Lecturer for 5 years in Software Development at Flinders University
I hold a degree in Computer science i majored in Mathematics
I speak mathematics in 4 languages
Cobol
Ada
C++
Fortran

When you see the Really smart ass dum comments by me like my comments about the ic and the hp chart, it is only because i have not had my meds, i have a mental divergence (chemical imbalance) (i wont write it here for fear or prejuduce behaviour from any stupid people who cant grasp things outside their own zone, and my script ran out last Thursday ive just filled it again , ive read my prev post it is nonsensical i apologise, but its been written so thats all i can do- nothing about that now.

But dont worry it wont last forever but if i get stupid again please just ignore it or block me i dont have any control when it happens, move on ok.

This is About the Porsche car
nothing else matters here
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
But when Turbokraft designed their intercooler they did so with a mission in mind, more hp right?
I question if its the best, because i need to know want to know and why.
the why is easy
same reason porsche went from no intercooler, then fitted one, then made a better, bigger one for the 964 turbo, and then full bay ones for the 993, etc. more hp needs more cooling of th eintake charge!
Old 05-26-2014, 12:19 AM
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Your more book smart than me Robbie. I'll give you that. And I only speak English. I hate math and don't speak well in front of an audience.
And I'm sorry for your imbalance, my best friend has it too. Can be hard to deal with in life.
You'll be fine if you keep to the questions and accept the answers without quizzing the answers.
I look forward to seeing your roof finished. That job is above me. Good luck with your projects.
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Turbo powa!
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:21 AM
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I am surprised that there is not more discussion about the benefit of removing the stock shuttle valve to mitigate the turbo lag. One of the benefits of a long neck IC is that you decrease the lag. If you were to just break even on HP then getting rid of lag would be a big bonus for me.

I can't be the only 930 driver that has uttered those immortal words, " Oh Mother of Turbo Lag don't fail me now", as I pull out into traffic from a side street! It is probably pretty scary for the oncoming traffic as they utter those famous words, " Jackass in a Porsche!". Then you go into light speed and all is better.

So as soon as I can get enough fun coupons in the piggy bank I am going to replace my stock IC with the RUF IC I got a while back to reduce the lag and get more HP.

A double bonus!
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1986 930 Ultra-Smith RUF Slant Nose conversion, RUF VB, K-27 HF-S, B&B Headers and Exhaust, RUF Short Shifter, RUF Interior
Old 05-26-2014, 04:41 AM
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