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Alan L's Avatar
 
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more HP

My track 930 has standard internals, plus the bolt on's as listed below.
If I was to go looking for another 50whp, what would the best way to go about it.
I am due to fit a bigger IC. I can change the cams. What advantage/characteristics would I get with SC or 964 cams. The SCs probably slip straight in. Does the 964?
I could open the intake ports in the heads - I see a recent post by JFAirman on that. But is that an advantage on the stock manifold? Generally I figure Porsche probably got this stuff pretty right, and in a non turbo world these changes affect the torque dynamics of the engine. (Narrow intake has a top end restriction, but generally higher torque). If just opening the ports gave more power, you might think they would have saved themselves some costs in the extra aluminium in the heads?
I can possibly change the turbo for a K27, but if I did it would be a 7006. I am told the 930S came out with this?
The old girl is probably due some attention. So while I am in there, don't want the opportunity to slip by.
Basically internal mods are OK, but externally the engine pretty much has to stay as is, more or less.
I've been trying to keep the car pretty well stock. It is a bit of a blast passing tricked up race machines with a 35 year old bog standard legend.
The beast is going very well, but I feel gravity is pulling me down the slippery slope.
I'll probably try and pull some more weight out while I'm at it, but it is getting to the hard(er) bits now.
Thanks
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-08-2014, 06:56 PM
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Maybe get in touch with Chris Carrol at TurboKraft and go over these things with him.

Sloppy old CIS injects fuel continuosly so it's still injecting fuel while the intake valve is closed unlike sequential EFI that only injects while the intake valve is open.
Those small 32mm intake ports speed up intake air velocity when the valve opens and that helps atomize the fuel that wets out all over the intake port walls while the valve is closed and no air is flowing through so it burns more completely during combustion. That helps improve CIS fuel economy and helps it pass emissions.
Opening up the ports will improve performance during upper midrange and high rpms.
Old 06-08-2014, 08:44 PM
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Thanks J Fairman. I liked the port work you did. Did you just mark the diameter out and then taper it into the head? Were you doing it to match some Carerra inlets? Mid to upper power is what I am after, and maybe the inlet choke effect is not so critical on a turbo'ed motor, since the turbo is forcing the air in anyway?
I am in touch with Chris over an IC, so will follow your suggestion. At this point I was planning on sticking with CIS. Trying not to do a Major, rather than some Tweeking. Which of course may turn into a Major at some other time.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-08-2014, 09:46 PM
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IC and cam change will get you your extra 50HP.
I played with the stock Euro engine to see how much power was available using the stock 3LDZ turbo, IC, J-pipe, and CIS. Cam change, ignition tuning, fuel tuning, muffler mod, and mild porting yielded well over 300WHP at stock boost level. Engine of course appeared completely stock.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Sloppy old CIS injects fuel continuosly so it's still injecting fuel while the intake valve is closed unlike sequential EFI that only injects while the intake valve is open.
The fuel injectors spray onto the backside of hot valves so that the vaporized fuel gets forced into the combustion chamber when the valve opens. Fuel vapor is a lot more volatile then fuel droplets.
Any non-sequential fuel injection uses this strategy to keep fuel from wetting the intake walls.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:13 AM
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Thanks Brian. So here is a query. What is the characteristic of the SC cam, vs stock. And since the SC cam was available at the same time as the 930 cam, why did they favour the 930 cam? Two queries so far. Any ideas as to how the 964 cam would work - have seen this mod on some threads? Three queries. And a fourth would be, what would 'mild' porting look like - is more better than less, or are we aiming for an optimum?
One thing that has bothered me when I've had heads off before is the fettling inside the intake ports. I have always polished the exhausts but I have suspected the intake fettling is there for a purpose - to break up laminar flow on the wall. So have always left well alone. (I have great respect for their engineering - in spite of rubber centered clutch etc - they are allowed a few stuff ups). I don't like changing Porsche stuff til I know precisely what I am trying to do.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)

Last edited by Alan L; 06-09-2014 at 12:42 PM..
Old 06-09-2014, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Thanks Brian. So here is a query. What is the characteristic of the SC cam, vs stock. And since the SC cam was available at the same time as the 930 cam, why did they favour the 930 cam? Two queries so far. Any ideas as to how the 964 cam would work - have seen this mod on some threads? Three queries. And a fourth would be, what would 'mild' porting look like - is more better than less, or are we aiming for an optimum?
One thing that has bothered me when I've had heads off before is the fettling inside the intake ports. I have always polished the exhausts but I have suspected the intake fettling is there for a purpose - to break up laminar flow on the wall. So have always left well alone. (I have great respect for their engineering - in spite of rubber centered clutch etc - they are allowed a few stuff ups). I don't like changing Porsche stuff til I know precisely what I am trying to do.
Regards
Alan
I am running SC cams with 36mm ports and I match ported the intake manifold myself with a die grinder and some bits. Its magnesium so its easy to machine.

The SC cams made a slight increase in low end torque but nothing really big. Its more subtle seat of the pants I guess. It pulls hard to redline of 6800rpm and I don't feel a dropoff in power as some claim I was going to see, but maybe opening the ports to 36mm helped with this too. When replacing the cam to the SC you might have to reshim the valves to get the valve seat pressures correct and check for coil bind, so be careful and check with the machine shop that does this alot and let them know your plans. You will also want to regrind the rocker arm pads so they are new to match the new cam lobes on engine break in. Rebush them while you are at it.

The k27S turbo really responded well to running the zork tube though, that was the biggest change I noticed when removing the stock muffler from the car. Boost threshold dropped 300-500rpm and throttle response increased big time.

I have not dynoed the car so I cant tell you the overall improvement numbers but I am shooting for 370hp-380hp at the wheels.
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---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"

Last edited by fredmeister; 06-09-2014 at 02:13 PM..
Old 06-09-2014, 02:08 PM
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I chose SC cams to optimize the stock Euro engine because they more closely align with the 3LDZ power band and fill in the gap off boost. Mid range torque hit 320 ft/lb to the wheels. Free flow muffler is required.
Old 06-09-2014, 02:40 PM
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Alan,
Here is some video track days with the PCA at various drivers ed events.

I am an instructor with PCA and use the turbo at these events. The car runs real well with the current set up but I haven't had the zork tube on it for a little over a year or so since the wife hates the car this way. Neighbors probably appreciate it too, but the biggest change you can make to wake up the engine is freeing up the exhaust system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XXIPkpl9hY&list=UUsJJggjY2ovHRVjalhBct6w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi3BjRMTUw&index=16&list=UUsJJggjY2ovHRVjalhBct6w

The Summit Point video quality is pretty bad, but it was taken during instructor training days on my old street tires. Lots of tire noise and slipping around a bit. But the engine pulls real strong with the SC cams.

Fred
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 06-09-2014, 04:11 PM
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Alan, go 964 cams bigger I/c and 7006 and send your fuel head out. Oh crap you're in New Zealand the man who is THE MAN with those is in Alabama still might be worth the shipping as it will be done right. When I was cis he bumped my head up to 23% over stock.. Just my 2 cents
Old 06-09-2014, 05:52 PM
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So now we have a vote - SC vs 964 cams.
What are the pro's and con's?
xbmwguy - I'm guessing I don't need more fuel at this point with the mods? My issue to date is winding back the boost dump. Maybe now I can make more use of it.
Fred - thanks for the links - love watching that stuff. My guess is the tyres weren't too good after Summit Point?
Here is a link I have just uploaded, presumes it works - from last Sunday.
Me and my camera don't get on very well, and I wish I could fix the sound so I can hear the zork in full cry.
1st round winter series 2014 - YouTube
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-09-2014, 08:33 PM
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For a track car like your car Alan, I would be looking for a 5 speed box.
I know you have the short 3&4, but a five speed is so much better.
I have had both a stock 5 speed 89 930 and a 400+ hp 4 speed 79 930.
At around 350hp you seek I would take what you have with a 5 speed any day.
Worth a thought
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:17 AM
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Hi mate. I understand what you are saying, but if you watch the video posted, I'm not sure an extra gear is warranted, unless I changed my 1/2 ratio. And I don't use 1 once moving. I spent quite a bit of time working out what I needed from 3/4 and for the two tracks I usually use it works out pretty well. This track is a bit 'short' ie I can't use all of 4, but the other track I am just on the shift point in 4 at the end of the fast bit (230k). So, I am planning on tweeking a bit more grunt out of it, since there is a reasonable amount to be had.
How are things with you? PS, Nittos on the front, Kumho on rear. Seems to work.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-10-2014, 01:42 AM
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Sounds like you need to focus on the setup giving the widest torque band, which is what I did. SC or Carrera cams will help along with spark and fuel tuning. If you can change turbos all the better. You have a free flowing tuned exhaust.
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I chose SC cams to optimize the stock Euro engine because they more closely align with the 3LDZ power band and fill in the gap off boost. Mid range torque hit 320 ft/lb to the wheels. Free flow muffler is required.
I went to SC cams with timing set at 1.65 mm with the stock ports and I'm very satisfied with the performance. Second gear is a blast and reminds me of my big block Corvette that I owned long ago.
Fred, it could be that the SC cam does not have enough duration for your enlarged intake ports. You are not getting the cylinder filling that you need for low-end torque.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:39 AM
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OK, here is what we have so far;
1)SC cams (with a 'slight" )performance gain (Fred)
2)964 cams
3)Open ports
4)Leave ports

Somehow I need to make a decision on these. I have been dealing with Chris (Turbokraft) on some other stuff. Hopefully he won't mind. Copied below his comments;

Assuming you have Sport headers and a straight-through 3” muffler already, here’s what to do while the top end is apart, without falling down the slippery slope:
1. SC camshafts = $1100/pr new
964 is better, but technically straying outside the letter of the law
remanufacturing your rockers (magnaflux, re-grind, re-bush)
2. ARP head studs – safety against a head lifting under boost
3. upgraded valve springs & retainers – mechanical insurance against floating the vales in case of a missed shift (safe at 8,000rpm)
4. port & polish – 40mm intake / 38mm exhaust
• 40mm intake -- this is as far as practical with CIS injection, the limit of the stock intake gasket, the typical porting limit of the cast intake manifold
• TK billet CIS injector blocks @ 40mm
• 38mm exhaust – port-matched to common 1-5/8” sport headers
5. ARP rod bolts – yes, you can easily pull the rods w/o splitting the case (especially after the head studs are removed – easier to work)
A really nice improvement in durability is solid dry film coatings to the following:
• rod bearings
• piston skirts

Now, if you’re straying outside the spirit of the law – okay, blatantly cheating – is bumping it all +1 more:
* porting to 41.3mm / 41.3mm – exhaust is now matched to 1-3/4” tube headers
* big 1-3/4” headers, divided twin-scroll turbine flange
* custom K27-based turbo:
twin-scroll turbine housing – these divided K27 flanges are getting very hard to find
upgraded compressor wheel in stock K27 housing
* 964 camshafts, or
TK EFI-T camshafts + machine valve pockets into piston domes (extra clearance)

I have some leeway in terms of cams (internal mods are OK) and can probably go to K27-7006 and stay within the terms of the rules - since it seems the 930S came with 7006. At the end of the day they are letting cars outside the rules run - to keep the fields large (20-25 cars). The front two in the video do not comply - the white Escort has an $80k Cosworth engine, and the RX2 has an aftermarket 13B. Mine is the quickest compliant car, by a long way (and set a new lap record for the group in that race - which cost me all my points (break out time)).
But I do like to stay within the rules (and still win).
So assuming a 7006 turbo, do I port the heads, do I go SC or 964? Does the 964 fit straight in like the SC?
Thanks
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-10-2014, 12:31 PM
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I had sc cams in my motor and then when to 964. They both work good but if I could I would put the sc cams back in. They give power a little earlier and are good to about 6000- 6500. The 964 come on later and will give you power past 6500rpms. I dont take my car past 6500 so for street use I think sc cams are better. If I was to track it , then the 964 cams would be better... for me at least.
Old 06-10-2014, 03:58 PM
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JBrown, good info - what I am looking for. Thanks. I don't plan on running it past 6500 either, and Fred didn't seem to find any drop in power there either. But at least I now know what the difference is. I suspect I would prefer to get a bit more bottom end response, rather than top - ie the quicker it begins pulling, the better.
I have posed the SC/964 Q to Chris too, so lets see what he comes up with, but on that basis I would lean to SC (but Chris says 964 'better'). Lets see how this pans out.
Did the 964s bolt in the same as SC, ie interchangeable?
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 06-10-2014, 04:20 PM
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You could also try advancing the cam timing a little. That usually moves the power band down a little. I don't know how much but it would be easier than removing all the rocker arms and the chain tensioner so you can change cams again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown View Post
I had sc cams in my motor and then when to 964. They both work good but if I could I would put the sc cams back in. They give power a little earlier and are good to about 6000- 6500. The 964 come on later and will give you power past 6500rpms. I dont take my car past 6500 so for street use I think sc cams are better. If I was to track it , then the 964 cams would be better... for me at least.
Old 06-10-2014, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
JBrown, good info - what I am looking for. Thanks. I don't plan on running it past 6500 either, and Fred didn't seem to find any drop in power there either. But at least I now know what the difference is. I suspect I would prefer to get a bit more bottom end response, rather than top - ie the quicker it begins pulling, the better.
I have posed the SC/964 Q to Chris too, so lets see what he comes up with, but on that basis I would lean to SC (but Chris says 964 'better'). Lets see how this pans out.
Did the 964s bolt in the same as SC, ie interchangeable?
Alan
Elgin makes his own cams called super SC, which are in-between SC and 964, kind of the best of both worlds for those who are undecided with cam selection. He uses his own billet grinds. SC or 964 cams still pose a compromise regardless of cam timing. With a decently built motor, these Super SC cams are fantastic for the street use, unreal low end tire smoking torque plus pulling like a jet until you can't see anymore into the high revs. Idle is nice and lumpy yet smooth and perky. I followed his recommendations which panned out so true. My 2 Pennies.
Old 06-10-2014, 05:22 PM
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