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Old car guy.....
 
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WUR problems

Thanks everyone in advance for your help. I think I have read all of the WUR threads over the last few months leading up to testing mine and now looking for advise on the next step.
My 1981 SC with an earlier (1976 930/51) twin plug K27 with I think a modified fuel head starts rich and runs rough for a few minutes then runs pretty good. I decided to check control pressures and found system pressure 5.6, cold pressure 5.7 and warm pressure 5.7. I may be hooked up wrong or there may be a problem with the WUR.
It seemed like an easy hookup with the Gage between the fuel head and the WUR.
It looks like the WUR was modified (drilled and tapped) and the(small) pin looks like it is pushed in about 2mm.
My question is should I try to adjust the pin, or take the WUR apart and see how it looks on the inside. Resistance across the plug is about 25.5.
Thanks again for your input.

Here are some pictures:










Old 07-02-2014, 10:12 AM
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Brando
 
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Send to Brian Leask! He's a master with these and will sort you out with efficient ease.
His contact info email is: brian@930wur.com
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Old 07-02-2014, 12:21 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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You are reading system pressure at all three locations. Either the gage is not hooked up correctly or the valve on the gage is closed. Please check. Your engine would not start or run if the pressures were that high warm and cold.
Likely that the cold start is lean. Once you get the gage lined out we will see.
Old 07-02-2014, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
You are reading system pressure at all three locations. Either the gage is not hooked up correctly or the valve on the gage is closed. Please check. Your engine would not start or run if the pressures were that high warm and cold.
Likely that the cold start is lean. Once you get the gage lined out we will see.

Thanks for your reply, I am probably doing something wrong!
When I turn the pump on with gage valve open pressure goes to 5.5, then I close the valve and pressure climbs to 5.7. When I reopen the valve it will drop to 4.5 for an instant then returns to 5.5.
As far as the hookup goes, the intake on the gage is hooked up to the line removed from the WUR which goes to the center of the FD. The other hose is connected to the WUR where the fuel line was removed. There is another line that comes off this banjo fitting and goes to the frequency valve (yellow plug)which is not connected.
I have tried adjusting the pin up (almost flush)with no change.
Old 07-02-2014, 01:10 PM
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Have a look to this vid! Hope it helps!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VktDzVxapU
Old 07-02-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rarlyl8 View Post
you are reading system pressure at all three locations. Either the gage is not hooked up correctly or the valve on the gage is closed. Please check. Your engine would not start or run if the pressures were that high warm and cold.
Likely that the cold start is lean. Once you get the gage lined out we will see.
+1

Been there, done that
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Old 07-02-2014, 02:27 PM
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Sorry, I jumped on a hijack without thinking... Back on topic!
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:07 PM
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I cannot see in your pictures how the gage is hooked up. Below is a picture that you can compare. Do you have instructions? Adapters are needed so you can install the hose in between the WUR and the fuel feed line. On the WUR, the banjo fitting with the 12mm head stays put. Unscrew the 14mm nut fitting from the WUR adapter and attach that nut fitting to one end of the gage hose tube close to the switching valve. Screw the other hose end onto the WUR adapter. When the switching valve is perpendicular the fuel flow to the WUR will be occluded and you will measure system pressure. Open the valve and you measure control pressure.


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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I cannot see in your pictures how the gage is hooked up. Below is a picture that you can compare. Do you have instructions? Adapters are needed so you can install the hose in between the WUR and the fuel feed line. On the WUR, the banjo fitting with the 12mm head stays put. Unscrew the 14mm nut fitting from the WUR adapter and attach that nut fitting to one end of the gage hose tube close to the switching valve. Screw the other hose end onto the WUR adapter. When the switching valve is perpendicular the fuel flow to the WUR will be occluded and you will measure system pressure. Open the valve and you measure control pressure.


I have reviewed the instructions and believe everything was hooked up correctly. This is a new gage set up from our host. Is it possible that the WUR is stuck wide open and not regulating the pressure at all? I have read that this is not too hard to disassemble if you are careful with it. Any tips on this?
Old 07-02-2014, 06:54 PM
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If the control pressure is 5.7bar cold/warm the engine will not start or run, it would be off the charts lean.
Your WUR looks long in the tooth. Someone made the cold pressure plug adjustable in the past and now the bolt/nut is missing. We can rebuild it but I would still want accurate pressure readings before doing so. Verify your gage valve is not stuck in the closed position.
What are the Bosch part numbers of the fuel head and WUR?
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-02-2014, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
If the control pressure is 5.7bar cold/warm the engine will not start or run, it would be off the charts lean.
Your WUR looks long in the tooth. Someone made the cold pressure plug adjustable in the past and now the bolt/nut is missing. We can rebuild it but I would still want accurate pressure readings before doing so. Verify your gage valve is not stuck in the closed position.
What are the Bosch part numbers of the fuel head and WUR?
WUR #0436140054
FD #0438120024
Took it apart, blew out connections, now system is about the same at 5.6 with valve closed. the cold reading has dropped to 4.7 bar with valve open picks up to 4.9 hot and holds about 1.5 when turned off.

Last edited by Hot Euro; 07-03-2014 at 08:19 AM.. Reason: redo
Old 07-03-2014, 07:21 AM
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Is the CIS pressure gauge tool installed so the T fitting the hose going to the gauge is connected to is in between the ball valve and the fuel line coming from the fuel head?
If not the brass adapter fittings are screwed on to the wrong hoses and need to switched.

If you post a picture taken from farther back or with a wide angle lens on your nikon that shows all the hoses with nothing cropped out around the edges then we can tell if it's hooked up correctly by looking at it.

FWIW... as far as CIS goes I like the fuel head you have except I would remove the white paint and paint it satin black.
It's the oldest and first generation fuel head they ever put on a 930 and it was originally made for the 4.5 liter Mercedes V8 in the 450 series way back in the early seventies. Thats why there are plugs screwed into the 2 unused injector line banjo bolt bosses on it.
The cool thing about those fuel heads is you can hook up another injector line to either or both of them and use an injector controller like the one split second makes to install a 7th injector in the throttle body pipe or in the top of the intercooler end tank spraying straight down into it if there's room for it.

At the same time the money spent on doing all that could go to an efi conversion... and that would be the smarter and safer thing to do.
Old 07-03-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Is the CIS pressure gauge tool installed so the T fitting the hose going to the gauge is connected to is in between the ball valve and the fuel line coming from the fuel head?
If not the brass adapter fittings are screwed on to the wrong hoses and need to switched.

If you post a picture taken from farther back or with a wide angle lens on your nikon that shows all the hoses with nothing cropped out around the edges then we can tell if it's hooked up correctly by looking at it.

FWIW... as far as CIS goes I like the fuel head you have except I would remove the white paint and paint it satin black.
It's the oldest and first generation fuel head they ever put on a 930 and it was originally made for the 4.5 liter Mercedes V8 in the 450 series way back in the early seventies. Thats why there are plugs screwed into the 2 unused injector line banjo bolt bosses on it.
The cool thing about those fuel heads is you can hook up another injector line to either or both of them and use an injector controller like the one split second makes to install a 7th injector in the throttle body pipe or in the top of the intercooler end tank spraying straight down into it if there's room for it.

At the same time the money spent on doing all that could go to an efi conversion... and that would be the smarter and safer thing to do.
Here is my hookup.

Painting the fuel head black would make it disappear with all this white.

Old 07-03-2014, 09:16 AM
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It's on right
Nice distributor you have there...

Removing the right side air pump diverter valve that isn't being used would make doing intake valve adjustments much easier. Maybe there's one still on the left side too.

Last edited by JFairman; 07-03-2014 at 09:24 AM..
Old 07-03-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
It's on right
Nice distributor you have there...

Removing the right side air pump diverter valve that isn't being used would make doing intake valve adjustments much easier. Maybe there's one still on the left side too.
Thanks for your help!
I am now closer on my pressures: cold 1.3 warm 3.3 system 5.7. It is 85 degrees in my garage and I don't know if there is an exact spec on a build like this. I will just have to see how it runs. I should have access to a LM2 next week.

I still have all of the airpump hardware on, is there any downside to pulling it off? I could keep it for the next owner. I have no emmissions test around here.

The distributor looks cool - I just hope it doesn't break.
Old 07-03-2014, 11:34 AM
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There is a problem with your part numbers.
0.438.120.024 is most likely the metering plate number. The FD number is on a plate in the back of the fuel head. A dental mirror will help you see it.
0.438.100.054 WUR is correct for a 930/51 USA engine.

930/51 Fuel System Specifications:
CCP @ 85F = 1.7-2.1 bar
WCP = 2.6-3.0 bar
System = 6.0-6.7 bar

With your current pressures I would anticipate this engine is running AFR rich when cold, within spec at cruise, and lean on boost.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
There is a problem with your part numbers.
0.438.120.024 is most likely the metering plate number. The FD number is on a plate in the back of the fuel head. A dental mirror will help you see it.
0.438.100.054 WUR is correct for a 930/51 USA engine.

930/51 Fuel System Specifications:
CCP @ 85F = 1.7-2.1 bar
WCP = 2.6-3.0 bar
System = 6.0-6.7 bar

With your current pressures I would anticipate this engine is running AFR rich when cold, within spec at cruise, and lean on boost.
I bumped up my cold pressure to 1.9, my warm pressure is now 3.5, System 5.6.
How do I increase the system pressure? And lower the wcp.

I found the other tag on the back of the FD: 438 100 018
I guess the idle adjustment on this FD is under the screw(plug) between the FD and the metering plate.
Thanks for all of your help on this!

Last edited by Hot Euro; 07-03-2014 at 03:54 PM..
Old 07-03-2014, 03:17 PM
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The part number on you FD should be -016, probably looks like an 8.
Bumping the CCP will also bump the WCP. To change WCP you'll need to mod the bottom plug to get at the adjustment screw. There are 2 versions of the -054, early and late. If you have an early one there is no plug.
Low system pressure usually means a weak fuel pump. Check the return flow and voltage to each pump before adjusting the pressure at the fuel head.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 07-03-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
The part number on you FD should be -016, probably looks like an 8.
Bumping the CCP will also bump the WCP. To change WCP you'll need to mod the bottom plug to get at the adjustment screw. There are 2 versions of the -054, early and late. If you have an early one there is no plug.
Low system pressure usually means a weak fuel pump. Check the return flow and voltage to each pump before adjusting the pressure at the fuel head.
I pulled the regulator from the fuel head just to take a look and this is what I found. Is it missing the valve ir is mine different from others.

Old 07-09-2014, 09:20 AM
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All the one's I've seen have a little valve in the middle there. It's for holding system pressure from the draining back to the fuel tank through the WUR's control pressure return line when shutting off the motor.
Without it system pressure would immediately drop to zero when shutting off the motor and fuel pumps and it's not supposed to do that. System pressure should hold around 35psi at least overnight..
Old 07-09-2014, 10:42 AM
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