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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Sorry Gents,

We have just discovered an issue with the Type 2 FrankenCIS blocks.

Not enough clearance on one of the internal drill holes, and therefore I'm doing a revised run immediately, but with the Xmas break being so close it will be some weeks before we have replacements.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-08-2014, 04:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #241 (permalink)
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prebordao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
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News from the front...

On a happier note, I'm glad to report that my first tests are very encouraging !

I have a prototype of the type 1 block, that Steve sent me, and decided to test the very minimal setup: no pressure damper, no pressure sensor (so running open loop), no dedicated temp sensor and a very simple ECU.

The lack of a pressure damper hasn't caused any issues. If you touch the line going from the FD to DWUR, you can feel vibrating when working, but it doesn't impact at all in the running. There's no additional stuttering or hesitancy at all.

No pressure sensor means I calibrated a cold and warm set points for the injector duty cycle previously, and after, programmed them into the ECU. The ECU follows faithfully the curve (or line, really) defined by those 2 end points, without the real time fine adjustments that a closed-loop system can provide. So far, in my testing, this hasn't been an issue at all, but more on that later.

No dedicated temp sensor. This was to simplify things just for testing purposes. I'm using the standard oil temp sensor that connects to the temp gauge in the dashboard, but for that I had to disconnect the gauge, as if the 2 are permanently connected, I get erratic readings. Not really a problem, an extra temp sensor can be easily accommodated elsewhere.

The simple ECU. Here, I went my own way. Due to the simplicity of task at hand, and my previous experience with the PICAXE family of MCUs, I picked a ready made board and a few extra components for a total cost of 20-25USD. I wrote my own software, which is quite simple.

Now for the results... The tests are still limited, but I already had cold starts, warm starts and restarts without any issues. Progress through the rev range is absolutely normal. By tweaking the code, I can specify how much time I want to take to go from full cold to full warm pressures. Right now, I have it at 6min.

One important detail: My original WUR is the simplest (and earliest), this means there's no vacuum adjustments on it. For that, there's a separate throttle pressure regulator (TPR). However, that can be added also, but then you'd probably be better looking at the ECU alternatives suggested by Steve.

The shiny block - Thanks Steve !



The tiny ECU

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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 12-09-2014, 04:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #242 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Congratulations and well done!

I suspected the pulsation would not be an issue as Bosch happily used an undamped injector for the Frequency Valve in the CIS-lambda variants.

I have an idea for your temp sensor. A standard thermistor epoxied inside a ring crimp terminal could go under one of your mounting bolts.

DigiKey sell them too USUR1000-103G-06 US Sensor | 615-1060-ND | DigiKey



Edit: actually that would probably work nicely for everyone else too
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-09-2014, 05:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #243 (permalink)
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prebordao's Avatar
 
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I have a thermistor like that and indeed used it on my first DWUR attempt (stepper driven).
However, a sensor bathed by engine oil reacts faster to temp changes... I'll think about it.
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 12-09-2014, 06:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #244 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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From what we understand of the Factory WUR operation the electrical heater on the bimetal strip is the primary, our tests bringing it to full warm pressure in approximately 2 minutes. The temp sensor is really only required to stop the system from starting the curve again on a warm startup like the WUR would, so reaction speed is not an issue.

Having said that, I'm using a proper coolant temp sensor, and would also prefer to be measuring oil temp if mine was air cooled.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-09-2014, 07:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #245 (permalink)
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Good point ! And that's what I'm doing.
I only take a temp reading at the start, to calc where to start on the curve.
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 12-09-2014, 09:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #246 (permalink)
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prebordao's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Hi Steve
Any news on the revised blocks ?
As a side note, when you have the final items, i think you should advertise them also on the "regular" 911 technical forum.
In the past there has been great interest (and frustration) with the UT products, so the need is clearly there.

PS- Merry holidays !
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 12-30-2014, 01:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #247 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Hi Paulo,

If all goes well at the machinists, the revised batch are expected by the second week of January. Most businesses take a couple of weeks off over xmas, so I will have an update shortly after everyone gets back to work here.

How is your simple implementation performing?
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-30-2014, 06:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #248 (permalink)
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It's going quite well after some tweaking with the min / max pressures.
And it's an improvement over my aging Wur. The bimetal had lost some springiness, so the range of adjustment became quite low, leading to some hot start problems.
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 12-30-2014, 06:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #249 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Update,

I've just heard from the machinist and the next batch is scheduled for anodising around the 25th of Jan we should therefore have supply again in a few weeks.

Thanks everyone for your patience.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-06-2015, 12:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #250 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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For those that may be interested in a more hard-core solution we are about to test the later KE-Jet or CIS-E fuel head with our little interface board and the MicroSquirt.

The advantage of CIS-E is the little black box on the side directly controls the differential pressure between the top and bottom halves of the fuel head meaning richer or leaner mixtures without altering the relationship between the air plate and the centre metering piston. So theoretically no possibility of running out of stroke as these fuel heads can flow an impressive amount of fuel over the earlier control pressure based units.

No WUR !!



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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 01-20-2015 at 03:55 PM..
Old 01-06-2015, 12:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #251 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
For those that may be interested in a more hard-core solution we are about to test the later KE-Jet or CIS-E fuel head with our little interface board and the MicroSquirt.

No WUR !!
Very interesting! How far into development is this?
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Old 01-06-2015, 06:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #252 (permalink)
 
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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I'm beginning the conversion from CIS to CIS-E on my 928 this weekend, and we are parallel testing on a factory stock CIS-E Mercedes v8 in the next week or so.
Bench tests are complete and looking good! We just need to go through the same data logging and tuning processes on vehicle that we did for the WUR versions.

This Late KE-Jetronic/CIS-E system is our commercial project that began all of this.
We've been working with a company that produces Supercharger kits for mid 80s to mid 90s Mercedes and the majority of the target vehicles are CIS-E.
We figured if we were doing the late CIS-E systems we might as well do the early ones too and that's how I ended up here.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-06-2015, 07:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #253 (permalink)
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Will that bolt onto a 930? ��
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #254 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Yes, we believe so

there are 6 cylinder units which might be usable and the external regulator is needed as well
The little interface board attaches to the MicroSquirt and converts the two injector outputs to the correct signals for the DPR (Differential Pressure Regulator) or EHA (Electro-Hydraulic Actuator)
This is the only change to the electronics from the WUR version and means the system could be swapped back and forth if needed.
The VW/Audi/Mercedes market kept CIS in play longer than Porsche and therefore benefitted from the continued development of the system.


below is from a Mercedes W124 300E and shows the regulator on the side
0438101012 is the bosch #
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-06-2015, 03:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #255 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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K-Jet (CIS basic) to KE-Jet (CIS-E)

Step 1 - remove fuel system




Step 2 - install new fuel head




Because I have to pull it all apart again shortly for the engine pull and seal/hose/gasket refresh, I'm not being too fussy about this test installation and therefore some of the fuel routing will be using temporary flexible lines rather than the correct hard lines. The external regulator will sit nicely behind the fuel distributor in the void over the bell housing and allow everything to be hidden under the air filter when re-assembled.

IF this works, the only visible change in the engine bay will be the missing WUR on the water bridge at the front of the engine.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-23-2015, 02:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #256 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Plumbed and ready for test and validation

Suspicions so far from basic pressurisation and leak tests after installation

1. it appears the factory K-Jet fuel pump relay will have to be replaced with one that is controlled from the microsquirt, as the CIS-E requires the pump to run for a short time during cranking otherwise no fuel is supplied to the injectors.
(CIS cannot shut off fuel supply - CIS-E can)
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-26-2015, 04:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #257 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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I can now happily report FrankenCIS now seems to work on all versions of CIS. The CIS-E (no WUR!) fuel head upgrade on the 928 is operational and functional tests have shown good control of AFR so far

So we have :-

K-Jetronic basic - controls an electronic WUR block by targeting a control pressure map referencing Time/Temperature. The standard style EFI Load and RPM referenced fuel demand map is them mixed in on top to provide an enhanced version of the manifold pressure adjustment available in the standard mechanical WUR.
AFR tables can also be mixed in to add multi dimension closed loop operation with a wideband sensor

K-Jetronic Lambda - as above with the addition of a second map table controlling the Frequency Valve or equivalent. in this mode we also split the additional EFI style tuning features between the WUR and FV where appropriate.

KE-Jetronic - completely different to the first two, No WUR, No Frequency Valve, static control pressure and complete control of the differential pressure between the top and bottom chambers of the Fuel Distributor. This means a wide range of fuel mixtures can be mapped without altering the position of the air plate (as happens with CIS basic) so the possibility of maxing out the air plate travel is essentially eliminated as the control piston always sees full system pressure. Be aware there are two versions of KE or CIS-E. The earlier VW/Audi units run similar system pressure to the original CIS. Sytem pressure around 70+ PSI and a grey DPR appear to be the identifiers.

KE3-Jetronic and KE-Motronic as above for KE but operate at 90+ PSI meaning a potential for greater fuel delivery and AFR authority. The Mercedes units we are testing so far all appear to be KE3 or KE-Motronic. Apparently a black DPR valve is the visual identifier. The black and grey DPRs are interchangeable if adjusted as I have done with my hybrid install.


I'm also told we should have the next batch of Type II FrankenCIS blocks early next week.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-29-2015, 03:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #258 (permalink)
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Glad to hear that some version of the dam thing is working for someone.

I still have a stepper motor version I paid about $700 for that never
worked. It was never installed on the car because the dam things were failing
faster than anyone could keep up with replacements.

Finally there was zero support and E Mails and phone calls were like pissing
into the wind, all you were going to get was wet. I gave up and they suck !!!!!

Cole
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Mods: TurboKraft Custom IC, 934 Headers, GSX 61, Zork, Port Work, SC Cams, Air Mod Fuel Dist Relocated, Water Meth Injection, BL WUR, MSD 6530, Greddy EBC, Synapse Bov, Short 2nd & 3rd with 8:37 R&P, Wevo Shifter, Coupling, and Mounts, MTX-L SSI-4, Big Brakes, Rebel Coilovers, Bilstein Sports.
Old 01-29-2015, 06:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #259 (permalink)
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Just so I understand this. I added up the costs for all the components necessary to make this work on a 930 with K-jet and I get about $1500 - $1600$US vs. $600 for the BL WUR with the RPM switch. Neither of the above costs include the LC2 which I would want for either setup. I'd have to see some dyno runs including AFR vs. MAP to be convinced this is worth the extra grand. Not knocking it, in fact I think it's a great idea but everything comes down to cost vs. benefit for the desired build.

EDIT - I think my costs are WRONG, have to go through it again.

EDIT - here are the costs I get:

FrankenCIS WUR 100
MS 339
Injector 25
CP sensor (US made) 75
MAP sensor (GM) 40
IAT (Bosch) 21
Bosch 996 engine temp 35

Total $635US

Does that sound right? If so, I'm def. interested pending dyno data. Is the injector needed for the Kjet basic?

Last edited by boosted79; 01-29-2015 at 08:57 AM..
Old 01-29-2015, 07:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #260 (permalink)
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