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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
At least one of the CIS-E metering bodies should be arriving this week. I have one from Germany and one from the US ordered on the 5th and on the way.
As soon as one of them gets here we will be reassembling the 928 and CIS-E testing will resume.

We've been using 0438101018 as the fuel head and we also have an alternate 0438101016 on the way which is supposedly a higher flowing Euro version!

I do so hate the waiting part

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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-14-2015 at 11:54 PM..
Old 02-14-2015, 11:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #281 (permalink)
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WERK I's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
.......................................

I do so hate the waiting part
Well, you could always come here to shorten delivery times. You'd certainly be welcome.

Hell, just walk in, the door's open!
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 02-15-2015, 04:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #282 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I suspect I'd freeze in seconds It's 11PM and 71F here at the moment
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-15-2015, 05:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #283 (permalink)
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WERK I's Avatar
 
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Surely, there are parts of the continent you could acclimate to.

Meanwhile, it's -10* F here with a Wind Chill Index of -25* F at times. Spring, get your ass-in-gear!

Anyway, Steve, do you think there's going to be enough headroom with both the U.S. and RoW metering units('78-'86) and your controls to pull 500 Flywheel HP with consistency?
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 02-15-2015, 05:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #284 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
Honestly, upper limits are an unknown, but if the metering units have the overall capacity we can certainly map to suit.

The strategies to date have all focused around control pressure and the WUR with some additional work in enlarging the control piston slits to increase flow etc..

CIS basic, once it reaches the 37mm of travel mentioned in the 934 thread is pretty much done due to the 0.2 bar static differential pressure.

CIS lambda on the other hand has the frequency valve which allows altering the differential pressure.

CIS-E only has control of the differential pressure to adjust mixture and has a range of 0 to 1.6 bar with the same normal fuelling point of 0.2

So there is a distinct possibility that CIS lambda at max travel has additional fuel capacity if we link in the Frequency Valve to the equation. Which is what we have done in the FrankenCIS control strategy, a second channel and map dedicated to the FV in parallel with the WUR.

So there could be additional untapped head room in the 78-86, whether or not that will allow 500HP is yet to be seen. There might be some real results from the units out there soon.

There are a lot of coulds, mights and shoulds in the above, but there is still very little hard data to go by on where the limits really are. Either those that know are keeping it close to their chests or nobody really knows.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-15-2015, 07:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #285 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
For example the following from post 26 of the 934 thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grupp-A View Post
Here is a flow chart of Bosch CIS fuel distributors and all 911/930 distributors are listed. I guess the flow rate must be the factory setting from Bosch.



<....>

Fuel req. per injector:

6 cyl 300 bhp fuel req. 250cc +/- 10% = 225-275cc/min/cyl

6 cyl 350 bhp fuel req. 292cc +/- 10% = 263-321cc/min/cyl

Daniel
Based on the numbers, an unmodified CIS system should hit the wall at a little over 300hp

Depending on which magic internet HP calculator I use for 500hp @crank I get between 333cc and 399cc @75psi for 6 injectors. 300hp @ the wheels I'm seeing 275cc so I suspect the numbers mentioned above are WHP not crank. The 150 litres/hour might be supply not output but divides out to about 420cc.

have a play with http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-15-2015 at 04:49 PM..
Old 02-15-2015, 04:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #286 (permalink)
 
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WERK I's Avatar
 
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I remember that thread. I have often wondered if those HP calculations apply for an injector that basically fires 720 degrees of a 4 stroke cycle. Wouldn't 600 HP be more accurate?
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 02-15-2015, 06:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #287 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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They should do - the only difference between us and EFI is CIS is always 100% duty and EFI has an efficiency maximum of around 80% duty

100% duty is mentioned as "between firing events" so equates to the full 720 degrees of rotation

a reference on the math Injector Math: How to Calculate Optimum Fuel Injector Size - OnAllCylinders
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-15-2015 at 11:15 PM..
Old 02-15-2015, 07:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #288 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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One of the Air Plate housings arrived here today so we are back to work on CIS-E
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-17-2015, 10:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #289 (permalink)
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**Subscribed - as a 3.0 CIS user looking for update options**

Thanks for the hard work.
Old 02-18-2015, 07:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #290 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Will that bolt onto a 930? ��
Confirmed the Mercedes CIS-E combination of 0438 121 037 and 0438 101 018 is a direct fit on the 928 inlet base and should be a similar fit on the 930 as we have the same gasket 930 110 394 00

There is a clearance issue with the air plate position sensor and the 928 heater supply pipe that I have to resolve and three of the bolts on the air housing are inverted so there is some fiddling to do but nothing dramatic.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-18-2015 at 06:54 PM..
Old 02-18-2015, 07:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #291 (permalink)
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cool stuff, i would like to see it working on a 930 engine, Great job
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1986 944 turbo -first car
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SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 02-18-2015, 11:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #292 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-18-2015, 04:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #293 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heliolps2 View Post
cool stuff, i would like to see it working on a 930 engine, Great job
Me too A number of units out there are destined for 930 or 911 turbos, so confirmation or condemnation should not be far away.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-18-2015, 06:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #294 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 501
Stupid Thought of the day...

EFI for as long as I can remember has had manifold referenced fuel pressure regulation to ensure a near constant differential pressure at the injector itself.

CIS on the other hand does not appear to have implemented this concept, was this an omission or is the higher delivery pressure enough to limit the effect of manifold pressure on delivery? (at the very least in percentage of change)

As CIS-E has the external pressure regulator which includes a manifold port supposedly for safety in case of a diaphragm rupture - the leaking fuel enters the manifold instead of dumping outside of the engine. This could and possibly should be connected so that boost or vacuum has an effect on system pressure.

The Stupid Thought is - could one of these external regulators possibly be retrofitted to early CIS in place of the current pressure piston/spring assembly. would that then give us a variable 1:1 rising rate on system pressure and allowing some additional flexibility in tuning WUR based CIS.
Some head scratching may be necessary!

note: there are two regulators
0438161001 - 75-82 psi
0438161013 - 89-95 psi
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-19-2015 at 01:49 AM..
Old 02-18-2015, 08:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #295 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Progress Report:

The swap to CIS-E is underway and has turned into a replace everything crispy or squidgy on the top of the engine.



__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-23-2015, 05:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #296 (permalink)
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It's really interesting and cool what you're doing with CIS.
I wonder if anyone has ever put a 928 motor into a 911? American V8's have been put into them.
Old 02-23-2015, 08:50 AM
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I read about a 914 with a 928 engine
Old 02-23-2015, 08:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #298 (permalink)
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While looking for options on digital WURs (and reasons to avoid UTCIS) I stumbled upon this thread and have to say, great work!

I have to apologize for my comment not relating to Porches directly but I've been looking for a digital WUR solution for my Volvo 240Turbo and this seems like a great alternative to a full blown EFI Swap. The applications across all manufacturers with WURs is quite significant as you pointed out in an earlier post so I hope the rest of the K-Jet community (bmw, vw, volvo, audi) will take notice.

Cheers.
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Old 02-23-2015, 02:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #299 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totle View Post
I read about a 914 with a 928 engine
914 + 928 V8 = ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
I hope the rest of the K-Jet community (bmw, vw, volvo, audi) will take notice.
Word of the project is definitely spreading, which is keeping us motivated
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-23-2015, 03:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #300 (permalink)
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