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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: North of Exit 17
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It's coming. Just need to get the fresh motor running, then I'll worth worth electromotive to get a code update to support the pressure control map algorithm.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 04-22-2015, 07:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #361 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Yes, Apologies to anyone who has been confused by the CIS-E experiment on the 928.

This is still very much applicable to CIS

FrankenCIS was always intended to operate on ALL versions of CIS regardless of the host vehicle. The 928 is my personal toy and being the only CIS vehicle here became the development mule. As soon as we verified the operation on standard CIS and CIS-E vehicles I began experimenting with mix-n-match options to see if the early CIS could be updated with later versions of the system

The plan for the 928 in particular was always to begin with CIS then move to CIS-Lambda then CIS-E. It allowed development and verification of each version for normal users and also updated my project vehicle to the latest system at the end of the path. As well as proving we were all not locked in to a particular version of fuel distributor if we desired to mess with a stock setup.

CIS with the eWUR is the most basic and therefore the crudest as we are altering control pressure only which means we are messing with air plate position and stroke.
- 100% stroke at a fixed 0.2bar differential pressure is 100% fuel delivery

CIS lambda with eWUR seems to be the best compromise of originality and control as we not only have the eWUR on Control Pressure but we also have full control of the Frequency valve which directly alters the differential pressure within the Fuel Distributor and therefore fuel delivery throughout the control piston stroke
100% stroke at a variable +/- ?bar differential pressure may be 120% or more fuel delivery with good control (fine and coarse)

CIS-E on the other hand has no WUR and operates on the same 0.2bar differential so theoretically for the same stroke and differential pressure should match the other two for flow - BUT the differential pressure regulator has a published normal range of +/- 1.6bar meaning the differential pressure can be massively altered and therefore may have a ceiling of 150% or more delivery at 100 percent stroke. And with excellent control authority including full fuel shutoff capability (overrun/Redline/safety/etc. Fuel Cut is possible)

Al this is ignoring limiting factors such as pumps and metering slits but in theory that's where I think the versions differ



Vehicles known to be running at present are
my 928 - on CIS-E using +/- 15mA of the 150mA range so 10% to achieve good AFRs

CIS with eWUR
Dkubus Mercedes SLC V8 race car with insane CAMS using around 80kpa or +/- 0.8bar of control pressure to achieve idle and good AFRs to redline
Dkubus Mercedes SL V8 street car (stock) using around 30kpa or +/- 0.3bar of control pressure to achieve idle and good AFRs to redline

Paulo's green 911 with FrankenCIS ultra-lite


in the works
Dkubus Mercedes 190E 2.6 6 cylinder CIS-E
911 and 930 eWUR based systems either currently or soon to be installed
a number of Mercedes 6 & v8, both eWUR and CIS-E
and a couple of Volvos

We are eagerly awaiting results from one or more of the private vehicle installs to provide confirmation the system works as advertised and there is a trusted independent Pelican tuner out there somewhere that should be testing too
I think everyone is still building engines at present.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 04-23-2015 at 03:57 AM..
Old 04-22-2015, 07:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #362 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
WERK I's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
..............................snipped for space..................

CIS with the eWUR is the most basic and therefore the crudest as we are altering control pressure only which means we are messing with air plate position and stroke.
- 100% stroke at a fixed 0.2bar differential pressure is 100% fuel delivery

CIS lambda with eWUR seems to be the best compromise of originality and control as we not only have the eWUR on Control Pressure but we also have full control of the Frequency valve which directly alters the differential pressure within the Fuel Distributor and therefore fuel delivery throughout the control piston stroke
100% stroke at a variable +/- ?bar differential pressure may be 120% or more fuel delivery with good control (fine and coarse)

CIS-E on the other hand has no WUR and operates on the same 0.2bar differential so theoretically for the same stroke and differential pressure should match the other two for flow - BUT the differential pressure regulator has a published normal range of +/- 1.6bar meaning the differential pressure can be massively altered and therefore may have a ceiling of 150% or more delivery at 100 percent stroke. And with excellent control authority including full fuel shutoff capability (overrun/Redline/safety/etc. Fuel Cut is possible)

Al this is ignoring limiting factors such as pumps and metering slits but in theory that's where I think the versions differ



Vehicles known to be running at present are
my 928 - on CIS-E using +/- 15mA of the 150mA range so 10% to achieve good AFRs

CIS
Dkubus Mercedes SLC V8 race car with insane CAMS using around 80kpa or +/- 0.8bar of control pressure to achieve idle and good AFRs to redline
Dkubus Mercedes SL V8 street car (stock) using around 30kpa or +/- 0.3bar of control pressure to achieve idle and good AFRs to redline

....................................snipped for space......................
Steve,
Thank you very much for the explanation/update. Are the above V-8 Merc's on the Basic eWUR system? If they are, maybe you should rename the basic system to "CISe" or "eCIS or......

This ol' fart is getting confused.
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 04-23-2015, 03:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #363 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Thanks Dave,

Yes the two V8 Mercs are basic CIS with eWUR setups
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-23-2015, 03:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #364 (permalink)
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Steve,
Don't you ever sleep? It must be pretty late over there.

The racing V8 Merc with radical cams sounds very encouraging for us 930 owners, IMHO.
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 04-23-2015, 04:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #365 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
It's only 10PM here way too early for sleep !
The Software company takes up most of my day, so most of my coding is done at night once the phones stop .

The merc is a bit of a beast
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-23-2015, 05:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #366 (permalink)
 
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Your percentages on fuel delivery are percentages of what? The fuel head is orifice limited, so it has to be something else. Factory fuel flow variability, perhaps?

Why I ask: The lambda fuel head on a 930 flows a lot less fuel than the fuel head on the early US/ euro (non-lambda) fuel head.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 04-23-2015, 10:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #367 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Quote:
100% stroke at a fixed 0.2bar differential pressure is 100% fuel delivery
Percentages mentioned above refer to the unit capacity - so at maximum effective control piston stroke and a fixed pressure we would have 100% delivery for that unit- at least in theory
so the later ones with secondary or primary control of the differential pressure may effectively allow the max delivery of the unit to vary between say 80% and 120% at full travel

The lambda heads may in fact have the same top end delivery as the earlier ones if the FV is used to drop control pressure, or it could be the metering slits or the outlet port orifices are the limiting factor and altering differential pressure has little or no effect at max flow?
I don't recall seeing anyone with a setup that used the FV for control, I think it has always been CP based adjustment and sometimes using a Frequency Valve on the control pressure circuit.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-23-2015, 11:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #368 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Still having fun tuning the vehicles here

Both Mercedes and the 928 all seem to be responding properly to the control of fuel delivery and both street vehicles are much snappier to respond to throttle after tuning to the calculated AFR targets

for reference I have listed below RPM MAP AFR tables generated from the log file AFR readings from the wideband sensors. So these are actuals not targets

The first is my 928 with a stock CIS and WUR system tuned to factory specs (ignore the 7.46 readings as this is sensor warm up)
The second IS my 928 on CIS-E (ignore the 7.40 readings as this is sensor warm up)
The third is the Mercedes SL on CIS with eWUR

Stock CIS (928)


FrankenCIS DPR (928)



FrankenCIS eWUR (Mercedes SL)
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-03-2015, 06:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #369 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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never mind. Problem has already been solved.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930

Last edited by kenikh; 05-06-2015 at 09:55 PM..
Old 05-06-2015, 09:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #370 (permalink)
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Hey guys i just discovered this thread i am very interested as i am in the process of fitting a 4.2L M116 into my Gwagen and have been thinking about doing a Megasquirt conversion but this looks easier and cheaper 2 things which appeal alot
Old 05-18-2015, 02:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #371 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Hi and welcome

Talk to Mike our resident Mercedes guru at Dkubus in South Australia sales@dkubus.com and he will assist with any specific questions you may have.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-18-2015, 03:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #372 (permalink)
Just add lightness...
 
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This is quite OT, but I was surprised when I found that there were aircraft engines using K-Jet !
I always thought that all the Porsche aircraft engines used Motronic...

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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 05-25-2015, 09:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #373 (permalink)
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...no leaky charge pipe o-rings on that turbo
Old 05-25-2015, 09:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #374 (permalink)
Brando
 
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And it's a pusher system. Filter on the turbo inlet and pushes boost through the cis? Interesting.
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Turbo powa!
1977 911s. it's cool
Old 05-25-2015, 10:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #375 (permalink)
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^^^^plus twin-plug with two distributors, each running off their respective cams. Two alternators for power. Pretty cool stuff.
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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 05-25-2015, 10:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #376 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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A quick little update.

There are now over 30 units out there in the wild, approximately half are Mercedes with Porsche, Volvo, Ford and a Lotus making up the remainder. The mix is about 50/50 CIS and CIS-E.



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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 06-10-2015, 09:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #377 (permalink)
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wow , nice package
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1986 944 turbo -first car
1997 993 Cab 6 speed-sold
1992 964 C2 turbo
SOLD, 911GT ,CIS, 428 fwhp 450 trq, Carrillo rods, 964 cams, TT retainers,7.5 comp 1.1 bar boost 320 ml black fuel head 009 injectors, 044 pumps, 60-1 T4/T3 dual scroll turbo
Old 06-11-2015, 11:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #378 (permalink)
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My kit should be on its way to me soon. Can't wait to get it on and running
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, MSD 6AL, Blaster Coil, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, OE Short Sift, K27 7200 Turbo Conversion, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, EFI MicroSquirt v3
Old 06-11-2015, 01:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #379 (permalink)
Just add lightness...
 
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My "package" isn't as nice, but here it is. This is what Steve meant as an ultra-lite application:

The tiny ECU box between the 2 relays



The eWUR (a bit grainy)
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 06-12-2015, 07:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #380 (permalink)
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