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I"m in!!
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
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Old 07-17-2014, 08:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Bosch specs for the original frequency valve 0 280 150 300
242cc @ 4.7 bar (supposedly 190-200 @ 3 bar)
the Andial injector was around 50% larger flow from memory
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 07-17-2014 at 08:52 AM..
Old 07-17-2014, 08:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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Nice Steve!

Good to see someone following through with this.

I went through this scenario in my head several times, and even built a MS1 to play with on my test bench with a scope and stimulator.

Even played 'what if' with deleting the WUR completely and using some kind of MS controlled servo on the barrel valve in the head. I think a high-end RC plane/car servo would work, but wouldn't last too long, and I'm not sure what servo would.

Then bit the bullet and decided to go full EFI.

Keep going!
__________________
1986 911 Turbo
3.3L, K27HFS, Tial 46mm, TurboKraft Intercooler, 964 Cams, Monty Muffler, MS3 w/MS3X, M&W Ignition, Zietronix WBO2 Data Logger, Wevo shifter, coupler and motor mounts.
Old 07-17-2014, 12:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Thanks for the encouragement everyone !

The plan is to begin with the K-Jetronic basic (no lambda)

I've updated the MicroSquirt in the test vehicle with the special firmware and an o2 bung is being installed shortly. I'm waiting on the injector metering blocks to be made and have most of the required parts for the following initial steps.

1. logging and comparing the control pressures against the wideband AFR with the system unmodified.
2. Introduce the bypass injector to the existing WUR - test and verify range of control and resolution / response

Once this configuration passes in a normally aspirated vehicle and a brave volunteer with a turbo can verify it works in a boosted environment we can move on to the alternatives.

next -> Standard WUR and K/lambda frequency valve

then the D-WURs and complicated combinations.

I'll be staying with the MicroSquirt throughout this project as I believe it's the best balance of cost and capabilities. It's tiny, well made, waterproof, has automotive grade wiring and connector, and probably above all else, is cheap.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-17-2014, 06:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Nice thing is...this same setup is also a VERY easy to use for twin plugs and COP ignition, virtually for free. But let's not distract...
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- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 07-17-2014, 06:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Distract away !

The additional MegaSquirt features was the secondary reason for choosing it
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-17-2014, 09:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Knock sensing finally works on MS3 and 993 knock bars work great for adaptation to older motors. Make me stop!
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 07-17-2014, 09:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
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You'll all love this little reference item:

http://jimsbasementworkshop.com/CIS/page_images/73%20911T%20CIS%20Print.pdf
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 07-17-2014, 10:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Very nice - thank you!

I knew of the site but missed that little gem.

If anyone does seriously prefer the MS3 pro let me know and I'll see if we can modify it too.
In for a penny in for a pound.

Also the good folks at DIYAutotune emailed a first 200 customer special this morning - 10% off in celebration of going over 200MPH in one of their cars. It may be over by now and only covers the MS2 MS3/Pro and DIY kits not the Microsquirt but it never hurts to ask.

What are the limitations here on commercial dealings i.e. mentioning 3rd party suppliers etc.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-17-2014, 11:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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I've just completed a quick skim of the PDF.
Is it wrong that I like the idea of combining the little throttle based control pressure regulator with a full vac/boost WUR and something RPM based like a mini version of the MFI pump?
'twould be very steampunk and ethically correct maintaining the voodoo - plus tunable with a file and a hammer again.

Ok back to our regular programming.....
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-18-2014, 12:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
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I say microsquirt. It fits this project best, doesn't over complicate things and if anyone really wants to go MS3, the software is the same. Let's stay focused.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 07-18-2014, 06:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
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subscribed........keep up the great work!
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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rewiring has begun.

I'm using a MicroSquirt version 2, the only difference between it and the currently available V3 is the coil drivers are built in to the V2 where in the V3 an external ignitor is needed.



For those that want to include a TPS but don't want to modify the throttle body, TCI do a remote TPS which looks like a viable alternative as it's cable operated. TurboKraft also seem to have a TPS adapter as part of their EFI conversion kit, so there are a number of options out there.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-19-2014, 09:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #33 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Another foolish thought comes to mind.

My 928 is currently basic K-Jetronic, and I have the parts to allow the next level of K-Jet/Lambda by changing fuel distributors to a Mercedes unit and adding the frequency valve, which, if the WUR is retained would bring it to the same level as the later 911/930s.
I also have a Mercedes V8 KE-Jetronic FD on its way so we can evaluate that side of the MicroSquirt programming.
So that gives us the hardware required to evaluate the system against the three generations of CIS on the one car during development.

But I was thinking, in order to work on the KE-Jet version I would be dropping the WUR and FV as the pressure control is now self contained on the FD. If that works as expected then there would be no sense in returning to the older generations of CIS. Would a similar upgrade be attractive for the turbo guys out there? i.e direct electronic control of a late Merc CIS-E head instead of the frequency valve?
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-23-2014, 06:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
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We all want our cake and eat it too!

We non-boosted snails are just looking for the fix to end all fixes if there be such a thing!

Labor on!

Thanks!

Tom
Old 07-23-2014, 09:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Absolutely nothing wrong with a never ending supply of cake!
Mine is non boosted NA too so don't worry, we all get to play if this works.

It will be a couple of weeks before we can do the first in vehicle tests of the hardware. the CAD drawings for the prototype metering blocks were completed and sent to manufacturing yesterday. It should serve double duty as either a Digital WUR or a high capacity Frequency Valve depending on installation choices. The popular WUR bypass option becomes redundant but still possible.

Stage 1 is the digital WUR

Stage 2 is the lambda capable fuel distributor with frequency valve

after that the odd combinations should be tried including KE fuel distributor
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 07-23-2014 at 10:09 AM..
Old 07-23-2014, 10:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #36 (permalink)
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What is up with you guys down there in Australia!? You, Fishcop, Bill James to name just a few. SO MUCH GOOD WORK!!!


Thanks for a great idea!!

Keith
Old 07-23-2014, 12:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #37 (permalink)
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There are a lot of folks from the areas sandwiched by South Pacific and Indian Oceans here already. Hayden Burvill at WEVO (Windrush Evolution), Kurt Donohoe at Partsclassik and many more like the guys at Magnecor (or at least the guy I talked with wasn't from Brooklyn).

I used to buy round case Ducati parts out of Australia because they had the best market for finding old stuff. They made a lot of parts too!

We use Monty Mufflers and I used Staintune which is another fine Australian brand of stainless exhausts for MC's.

Necessity is the mother of invention. When you're on an "island" in the middle of nowhere I reckon you learn "how to" really fast!

Tom
Old 07-23-2014, 01:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #38 (permalink)
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Great work, I'm in if it works for 930's
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Well you'r in the 930 section. This is interesting if it remains 930 compatible. If not, if I can speak for most here, would not be as interesting. I for one would love to see it remain 930 compatible.
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
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