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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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if there is a good spot to mount it then yes
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 06-29-2015, 08:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #401 (permalink)
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I'll take a pic of where mine is mounted, then. ��
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-29-2015, 09:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #402 (permalink)
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WERK I's Avatar
 
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The highlighted areas are the heat exchanger pipes that run up to the ducting of the car. These are B&B headers, but the factory HE's would be somewhat similar. One could tap a hole close to the HE boxes to mount the sensor.

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Dave
'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 06-29-2015, 09:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #403 (permalink)
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Head temp is the ideal source for engine temperature.
The 3.2L Carrera sensor has a M10x1.0mm thread pitch, we use it and make adapter blocks for our 911 Turbo EFI conversions:
TurboKraft Inc : Cylinder Head Temperature Sensor Set [930 606 915 TK] - $198.00

There are also K-type thermocouple sensors that are installed between the spark plug and head, popular in the air-cooled VW aftermarket, maybe a simple option for your application.

The temp sensor in the photo above is the charge air (post-intercooler) temperature sensor, similar to those used on the 993T and millions of VW-Audi turbo engines. It bolts down to a machined surface and seals bymeans of an o-ring. For a DIY conversion, a threaded bodied sensor with tapered threads (ex: NPT) would be more versatile.
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #404 (permalink)
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The reason I didn't use the 3.2 CHT sensor was twofold:

1. I'd already buttoned up the motor, so installation would be a PIA.
2. Cost

The VW/914 CHT sensor is CHEAP and can be installed without taking anything off of the motor. We just tapped and threaded the outboard fin on the #3 cylinder.
Old 06-29-2015, 10:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #405 (permalink)
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Here's mine:

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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-29-2015, 04:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #406 (permalink)
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Kenik, that looks pretty convenient. Did you need to drill and tap the hole for the sender? Which sender did you use?
Old 06-29-2015, 06:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #407 (permalink)
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It just plugs into the Tec3r harness.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-29-2015, 06:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #408 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moparrob View Post
Did you need to drill and tap the hole for the sender? Which sender did you use?
It looks like the VW sensor mentioned in post #398
I'm guessing drilling and tapping in the cam housing was needed.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 06-29-2015, 07:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #409 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
It looks like the VW sensor mentioned in post #398
I'm guessing drilling and tapping in the cam housing was needed.
Yup
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-29-2015, 07:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #410 (permalink)
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Sorry, I re-read the thread and it say you tapped into the #3 cylinder fin, not the cam housing. Looks clean though.
Old 06-29-2015, 08:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #411 (permalink)
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I misspoke. Definitely in the cam tower.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 06-29-2015, 08:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #412 (permalink)
 
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umop apisdn
 
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As part of the Franken8 ECU project I'm currently looking at the feasibility of introducing Ion Sensing using something similar to the SAAB Trionic coil pack design and feedback from the actual combustion chamber post-ignition event.

Quote:
During engine operations the Ignition cassette continuously monitors the ion currents in the cylinders and sends a signal to the Trionic ECU on pin 44, in the event of knocking. The logic for this function rests solely in the ignition cassette and is adaptive to be able to handle disturbing fuel additives. The Trionic ECU is well aware of which cylinder that has ignited and could hence cope with the information fed through one pin. The signal to pin 44 and ion current in the combustion chamber is related to each other. When this signal reaches a certain level the ECU interprets this as a knocking event and firstly lowers the ignition advance by 1.5 on this cylinder. If the knocking is repeated the ignition advance is lowered further by 1.5 , up to 12. In case of the same lowering of the ignition timing advance in all cylinders the ECU adds a small amount of fuel to all cylinders. If knocking occurs when the MAP is over 140 kPa the knocking is regulated by switching both fuel injection matrix and ignition advance matrix. If this is not sufficient the charging pressure is lowered.
As far as I'm aware no-one outside of an OEM has actually managed to do this so I could be wasting my time, but I think it's worth trying for.

Thoughts?
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-04-2015, 04:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #413 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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This might be a useful reference

Bosch Australia, Fuel pump test results by part number ( interesting note is the 044 tests at the same flow as my 984)

http://apps.bosch.com...../Fuelpumpflowrates.PDF

Also from Bosch Motorsport with delivery/pressure curves

http://www.bosch..../Fuel_Pump_FP_200_Datasheet.pdf
the standard FP200 is rated at 5bar and is the normal 044 part # 0 580 254 044
they also list an 8bar version of the unit with a motorsport part # B 261 205 413-01
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-06-2015, 05:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #414 (permalink)
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Nice !
Even the Porsche aero engine from a few posts ago is there (PFM 3200)
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #415 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Link to gavinc69's install thread
FrankenCIS Digital WUR Install
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-26-2015, 07:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #416 (permalink)
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Wow what a find this thread is!!

I have been researching with the intentions of stretching the limits of the CIS Lambda on my 1980 Porsche 931, it is a downdraft system.

This thread has completely set my imagination in a different direction and am now kicking around the idea of converting to a Merc V8 CIS-E unit with one of your controller setups.

To be honest I have never played with any Megasquirt before, this would be quite new to me.

Naturally I have a lot of questions and would love some links to more information on the subject in order to bring myself to fully understand this contraption.

Where exactly can I find as much information as possible (your forum?) and where would be the best place for me to field my remaining questions after I get through reading everything I can find?
Old 08-06-2015, 01:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #417 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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The basic overview of my install is here The FrankenCIS 928 CIS-E Hybrid install

I would also have a good read of the MicroSquirt documentation http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsquirt_Hardware-3.3.pdf
along with our additions FrankenCIS Manual - Downloads

As for questions - asking here should be ok as I think everyone would be interested in a boosted CIS-E application regardless of the target engine. Or if you prefer you could email Mike directly on sales@dkubus.com and we will summarise and post anything that might be appropriate for the group later.

Cheers and welcome to the insanity,
Steve
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-06-2015 at 04:42 PM..
Old 08-06-2015, 04:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #418 (permalink)
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Ok..
Aside from the distributor mounting, intake plumbing, fuel line plumbing, all the wiring, and general custom physical installation challenge, I can handle that, what does the actually turning it on and making it run part look like? Speaking for fuel only..

Would it come with a good enough "base map" for it to run(ish) and simply tune from there or will it require a whole lot of figuring computer things out to get it to work?

I hear with standard EFI Megasquirt it can be the biggest challenge to configure it, get it to run, and then tuning can take a very long time and be a quite daunting and a drawn out affair.
How would this system compare to that?

I am quite mechanically inclined, I get along with engines and CIS pretty well, but I am a bit behind the curve on the computer tech side of things..
In other words, would you recommend this system to someone who doesn't have a previous standalone EFI install or 2 under there belt? To a megasquirt noob?
Could/would you provide adequate technical support for such a case?

Is any microsquirt box ok or some specific one?
Will it work and get along with other wideband setups such as an MTX-L?

Does it matter what fuel distributor you use (as long as it's CIS-E)?
Just look for the late style mercedes FDs with the black box on the side and the external fuel pressure regulator can? What's with the grey box ones?
Would it be different base maps/configuration for different distributors?
Do you know of any problems with CIS Lambda injectors on CIS-E distributors?

Do you know anything about running 4 injectors on an 8cyl distributor with the lines spliced to 2 distributor ports per injector?
Like from the Porsche factory on the Porsche 924 GTS/GTS clubsport here?
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #419 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
Would it come with a good enough "base map" for it to run(ish) and simply tune from there or will it require a whole lot of figuring computer things out to get it to work?
Yes - the advantage of CIS is the air plate and fuel distributor form the base map by default , so all we are actually doing is a +/- fuel adjustment in the 'map'.
So with basic CIS a flat map with all 100s in the cells is enough to get the vehicle running. CIS-E is slightly offset depending on the black or grey DPR/EHA (Differential Pressure Regulator or Electro-Hydraulic Actuator) so the maps are normally somewhere around 120 or 130 baseline so something like 125 across all cells would be enough to begin

Quote:
I hear with standard EFI Megasquirt it can be the biggest challenge to configure it, get it to run, and then tuning can take a very long time and be a quite daunting and a drawn out affair.
How would this system compare to that?
FrankenCIS is much simpler to begin with because of the natural base map behaviour of the CIS system, although the tuning and tweaking to perfect it can be as complex and drawn out as you wish. Mike and I have both found that setting up a calculated AFR table in the MegaSquirt software and then letting the automatic "Live Tune" feature have its way for a while produces pretty good results within a few drive cycles. At least one Dyno session should be factored in for best results.

Quote:
... would you recommend this system to someone who doesn't have a previous standalone EFI install or 2 under their belt? To a megasquirt noob?
Could/would you provide adequate technical support for such a case?
I think so - yes. Mike and I both have quite a bit of experience with CIS and although I'd been using the microsquirt product for several years , we developed FrankenCIS as an advanced CIS tuning system that used an EFI controller, but wasn't really EFI, so coming in clean should not be a disadvantage.


Quote:
Is any microsquirt box ok or some specific one?
The MicroSquirt v3 is the current model and the preferred base.

Quote:
Will it work and get along with other wideband setups such as an MTX-L?
Yes most wide band controllers should work as long a there is a 0-5v output for an ECU


Quote:
Does it matter what fuel distributor you use (as long as it's CIS-E)?
Not really although the v8 one is probably the most flexible option for your installation

the 6 cylinder and v8 units have a common bolt pattern and matching air housing configuration, the fours use a different bolt pattern and mount so should probably be avoided especially if you are considering the GTS paired port setup

Quote:
What's with the grey box ones?
Grey are VW and use standard bosch connectors, Black are usually Mercedes units and use a pin type Mercedes connector


I'm happily running early injectors on mine with the CIS-E head from a Mercedes and a VW grey DPR valve, so as long as your injectors are in good condition I doubt you would need to change.
Mapping will change a bit depending on your choices of hardware, but the basic setup and then fine tuning will be similar across all versions.

I changed over all my hardware
Set up the air plate and fuel distributor pin heights according to the factory specs
Ran the normal safety pressure and leak tests etc. before proceeding to starting
Set a flat map of 120 in all cells
setup a rough start mixture and warm up profile
fired up the old beast
adjusted the air plate mixture screw for idle CO% ( or close enough AFR )
then took it for a test run.

Now the summary is a bit over simplified but stull pretty close to the truth, we had done some testing before hand and therefore knew roughly what the settings should be. That little bit of research and final validation on my setup was enough to setup a further two vehicles base profiles before tuning. So although it's not as simple as a WUR based setup it's still pretty easy to get up and running on CIS-E.
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-06-2015, 08:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #420 (permalink)
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