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When I get to that point, how do I control the CDI timing with the MS? Is there something that intercepts the green wire? or some other trigger? Is it set +/- from stock, like the fuel, or absolute degrees of advance/retard?

Also, I notice that the MicroSquirt docs state that its not intended to be mounted in the engine compartment, but rather behind the dash. For us, that's a long set of sensor wires. Is that an issue?
Old 03-11-2016, 07:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #521 (permalink)
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MicroSquirt is hardened. Lots of engine bay installs.
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- 1979 930
Old 03-11-2016, 07:34 PM
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umop apisdn
 
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The MicroSquirt is water resistant (splash) and heat tolerant to a reasonable amount, engine bay installs will be fine as long as it's in a protected area away from extreme heat and water.

Ignition control is in absolute degrees, and although it can be connected to the distributor green wire, the distributor mechanical advance and vacuum advance mechanisms need to be removed and the shaft locked to obtain a steady signal. It would be simpler and better to add a crankshaft trigger of some sort to get a solid high resolution signal for accuracy.

Stock CDI control should be possible in theory depending on the unit you have, though many have gone to something like the MSD ignition box instead.

The ignition section in the MicroSquirt manual explains some of the options available http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsquirt_Hardware-3.4.pdf
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-11-2016, 09:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #523 (permalink)
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We locked the distributor in a buddy's car using safety wire. Worked fine. Using phasing to get timing adjustment works OK, but you end up limited to about 25 degrees advance, IIRC. If you want more, use a crankfired setup.

I also know there are people out there using MS and using the CDI. I just dont recall what it took.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 03-11-2016, 10:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #524 (permalink)
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We locked the distributor in a buddy's car using safety wire. Worked fine. Using phasing to get timing adjustment works OK, but you end up limited to about 25 degrees advance, IIRC. If you want more, use a crankfired setup.

I also know there are people out there using MS and using the CDI. I just dont recall what it took.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 03-11-2016, 10:35 PM
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By "locked" you are preventing any advance/retard correct? Including the vac/boost timing changes as well as the mechanical advance inside the unit.
Old 03-12-2016, 04:12 AM
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correct
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-12-2016, 04:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #527 (permalink)
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Ok a few more questions

Wrt an initial MAP, do you have anything or just 100s across the board? *What about initial target AFRs that auto tune can build a map from?

Original stock power plug to WUR needed? *Just tie up out of the way?

Pick up RPM off the tach output pin under the cdi tray?

IAT sensor? *Where recommended to install in stock 930? *Any difference when later going to longneck intercooler?

Use the vac line from throttle body to thermo valve on triangle of deal for MAP? *Is there a better place to T that in?
If so, what to do with other line? *Cap off? Where does that line go? *I don’t recognize the “thermal valve” in gavin’s thread

Freq valve is disconnected from current connector and replaced with connector from MS *lambda box under drivers seat now unneeded, *Leave disconnected right? Don't need to keep current narrowband for anything, right?

Does your kit get me anything other than the WUR block over sourcing all the pieces myself and installing the new firmware? *Might be easier and can get started sooner. *Connector pack?
Old 03-12-2016, 01:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #528 (permalink)
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Begin with 100s for the VE map, and set the warm up curve to match the original WUR
A target AFR table can be calculated and tuned against if desired, and I'm sure some here will have suggestions.
Dyno time and tuning to your engines output is my preference and recommendation.


What you do with the Original stock power plug to WUR will depend on how the system is wired up. The dkubus kits were using it to power the FrankenCIS eWUR.

Quote:
Pick up RPM off the tach output pin under the cdi tray?
to begin with, yes
Once you decide to implement ignition control then change to the distributor or crank sensor input instead of tach.

Quote:
IAT sensor? *Where recommended to install in stock 930? *Any difference when later going to longneck intercooler?
IAT should be taken from the same point that air is measured, so as close to the CIS air plate as possible. The Air cleaner box is a good spot.
Just remember that because CIS has the air metering plate it is already adjusting itself to air density. We suggest initially setting Air Density correction to zero correction or 100%.
So IAT can be used for fine tuning but is not as important as it would be if we were installing a normal injector based EFI system.

Quote:
Use the vac line from throttle body to thermo valve on triangle of deal for MAP? *Is there a better place to T that in?
If so, what to do with other line? *Cap off? Where does that line go? *I don’t recognize the “thermal valve” in gavin’s thread
The folks here should be able to confirm the best point to connect

Quote:
Freq valve is disconnected from current connector and replaced with connector from MS *lambda box under drivers seat now unneeded, *Leave disconnected right? Don't need to keep current narrowband for anything, right?
Yes, the second injector output on the MicroSquirt can directly control the frequency valve and the original lambda box can be disconnected. The Narrowband sensor is replaced by the Wideband.

Quote:
Does your kit get me anything other than the WUR block over sourcing all the pieces myself and installing the new firmware? *Might be easier and can get started sooner. *Connector pack?
The FrankenCIS WUR block is the only special component if you would like to source all of the other bits yourself
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-12-2016, 05:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #529 (permalink)
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Another possible configuration for USA vehicles would be to leave the stock WUR in place and just take direct control of the lambda frequency valve.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-12-2016, 05:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #530 (permalink)
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I'm not sure that just using the lambda valve would work for bigger turbos and other go faster bits as you'd rapidly run out of fueling would t you? If you still had to do a BL WUR or similar what's the point? Conceptually I really like the eWUR approach.

In a turbocharged car is putting the IAT in the air box a good idea? Wouldn't air coming out of the intercollegiate be hotter and less dense? Would IC exit be a better location?
Old 03-13-2016, 07:33 AM
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I use AIC-1 to control frequency valve. I do have bl wur but I'm not sure its needed of you take your time to dial the aic map. I have extra/spare aic-1 I could sell too.

My fueling is fine with holset hx40 super and 1.2 bar boost with 120 mph trap so it can control plenty of fuel too.
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Old 03-13-2016, 07:55 AM
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The testing fasteddie did on the lambda system noted earlier in this thread suggested there was an impressive range of control available without needing a non-stock WUR. Altering the control pressure via the WUR changes the current position of the air metering plate but does not alter the total amount of fuel available at 100% air plate swing. The Frequency valve on the other hand alters fuel flow itself, providing more or less than normal for any given position of the air plate. I believe the Frequency Valve circuit is the key to extra fuel at the top end for a standard fuel head.

For the IAT sensor, as we are not using it for the traditional speed-density fuelling required by EFI, it's placement is open to a number of options. At the metering plate is best if only measuring air volume/mass, but after the turbo and intercooler, just before the throttle body would be best if tuning to compensate for variations in compressor and intercooler efficiency.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-13-2016, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
The testing fasteddie did on the lambda system noted earlier in this thread suggested there was an impressive range of control available without needing a non-stock WUR. Altering the control pressure via the WUR changes the current position of the air metering plate but does not alter the total amount of fuel available at 100% air plate swing. The Frequency valve on the other hand alters fuel flow itself, providing more or less than normal for any given position of the air plate. I believe the Frequency Valve circuit is the key to extra fuel at the top end for a standard fuel head.
Reanimotion,

I believe I'll be diving into FrankenCIS by using it to control the lambda frequency valve on my '87 930 in the quest for additional fuel in high RPMs / high boost. Then as I get more comfortable with the system I'll start utilizing it's other features.

So.... I need to put together a parts list for this simple system. Does the following list sound right?

- WBO2 controller with AFR outputs. I already have an Innovate MXT-L installed.
- MicroSquirt EMS V3.0 with wire harness.
- Pigtail/connector to connect Microsquirt harness to stock CIS lambda frequency valve.
- FrankenCIS firmware.

Thanks for everything you've done for CIS cars!
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Old 03-13-2016, 02:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #534 (permalink)
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That should do for the main components, don't forget to add a MAP and engine temperature sensor to the mix
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-13-2016, 02:56 PM
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In your parts list on the first page for engine temperature sensor you reference "Bosch 996 unit".

That sounds like an intake air sensor like this:
Amazon.com: Porsche 996 986 Air Temperature Sensor Intake Manifold OEM Bosch: Automotive

Isn't that for engine temperature sensing? Would this work:
Porsche, Volkswagen Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor - Bosch 0280130012 - Free Shipping
Old 03-14-2016, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #536 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Isn't that for engine temperature sensing? Would this work:
Porsche, Volkswagen Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor - Bosch 0280130012 - Free Shipping
This sensor works great
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- 1969 911S
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- 1979 930
Old 03-14-2016, 10:06 AM
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definitely the second one for air cooled engines
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-14-2016, 02:54 PM
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Scott

I think I'm going the simple route like you suggest first. Perhaps we can compare notes. I think the connectors for both the Delphi injector (not used in the simple lambda valve only install) and the lambda valve is the ACDELCO PT2164 at ******** for about $6 ea

https://www.********.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1028234&cc=1440834&jsn=494&jsn=494&jsn=494

diyauto tune has the other stuff with connectors at reasonable prices.

14point7 has a "spartan" wideband O2 controller with various outputs for $125 including the Bosch sensor and its designed for MS.
Old 03-14-2016, 03:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #539 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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DIYautotune have a delphi version of the EV1 injector connector which is a little better than the original design and doesn't need a boot to seal the wire side
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/fuel-injector-pigtails-bosch-ev1/
and
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/fuel-injector-connector-bosch-ev1/

The 14point7 gear is a very good design and doesn't require constant calibration like the Innovate and others do. The Spartan2 is the same unit Dkubus provides in their kits. Just make some allowances for delivery time as I believe they only ship orders once a week.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-14-2016, 04:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #540 (permalink)
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