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flightlead404 and Reanimotion,

I spent a fair amount of time last weekend researching Microsquirt and installing it in our 930s - specifically the situation I'm working on which is adding fuel at high RPMs/boost using the stock late 930 lambda frequency valve. Here are my current thoughts:

1. It sounds like what I'm trying to accomplish can be done with MS firmware using the staged injectors feature.

I do have intentions of going to the FrankenCIS eWUR however I'd like to get MS controlling my lambda frequency valve first. Once the MS 'piggyback' system is dialed in nicely then I'll start adding features with the intention of FrankenCIS eventually controlling the entire CIS system.

A question I have is should I start with FrankenCIS firmware from day 1 or should I start with MS firmware?

2. I've read conflicting info of whether using the lambda frequency valve for additional fuel at high RPMs will work or not. It's been suggested before I do anything that perhaps I should upgrade my stock front fuel pump to the Bosch 044 motorsports pump. After installing the pump make any necessary WUR adjustments for cold/warm pressures, then see what AFRs look like at the top end.

3. Another suggestion is to test the lambda frequency valve with my system as-is. Wire up the lambda frequency valve to a 12V switch and turn it on during high RPM/boost and see what it does to my AFRs. It's possible it could lower my AFRs at the top end or it may do very little. Unfortunately I wouldn't know conclusively without upgrading to the 044 front pump first.

I'm also concerned about running the lambda frequency valve at 100% duty cycle for the testing, although for a few seconds at a time it should be ok. Is this a bad idea?

4. Technically using the stock lambda computer fed by a WBO2 controller to control the lambda valve could accomplish the same thing. Over a certain RPM simply center the WBO2 signal output around your target AFR and provide that output to the stock lambda computer. The stock lambda computer thinks it's adjusting duty cycle around stoich but in reality it's adjusting to your target AFR.

After saying all that... most likely my very first step will be to wire up the lambda valve to a 12V switch and see what happens. If I see no/minimal difference I may go ahead and install a 044 front pump then run the same test again. If either works well then I'll proceed with FrankenCIS/MS.

I welcome constructive feedback. Please let me know your thoughts on the above info. Thanks!
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-Scott
1987 911 turbo
In the past - '71 T, '77 S 3.6, '80 SC, '88 3.6 cab
Old 03-16-2016, 08:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #541 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Scott

I think I'm going the simple route like you suggest first.
Gotcha. A couple questions:

1. What's your name?!

2. What year is your 930 and describe what mods you have to the engine.

3. Hopefully your CIS engine is already well tuned without using a lambda system in low/mid RPMs/boost and you're simply looking for additional fuel from 5k to redline. If so then most likely our systems can be similar.

My '87 is currently set up with:

Short gears, K27/29 hybrid turbo, Garrretson half bay intercooler, stock 0.8 bar wastegate spring, RarlyL8 headers and muffler, adjustable WUR, and a simplified CIS system. My stock '87 lambda valve is still in place however not being powered.

If I'm successful in getting the new system working with stock boost then I'll probably bump the boost up to 1.0 bar then dial it in again. THEN add in the FrankenCIS WUR and continue with having FrankenCIS take over control of the full CIS system.
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1987 911 turbo
In the past - '71 T, '77 S 3.6, '80 SC, '88 3.6 cab
Old 03-16-2016, 08:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #542 (permalink)
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Scott,

The standard MicroSquirt firmware will not work to control the Frequency Valve properly.
The FV requires a constant frequency of around 100 cycles per second regardless of engine speed and an on/off ratio of +/- 50%, the staged injection is a timed squirt per revolution of the engine so the frequency varies with speed and the ratio is therefore too hard to control and too jumpy below 6000 rpm.
The FrankenCIS firmware has the fuel control required for both the FRV and eWUR and also does not need the eWUR at all if you are only interested in controlling the lambda circuit.

So start with FrankenCIS firmware from day 1, we've also written the firmware changes so you can switch the system between CIS modes and Normal EFI if you do feel the need to experiment.

regarding the lambda control
From post 423 in this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Fasteddie313 has provided some very interesting test results

on a stock CIS-Lambda fuel distributor at full travel, driving the frequency valve at 100% duty added approximately 60% extra fuel over normal
924Board.org :: View topic - FRANKENCIS - microsquirt replaces WUR > UTCIS

So don't forget to connect the frequency valve to FrankenCIS if you have one
replicating the static tests Eddie did with your 930 would be fairly simple, and safer than with a running engine on the road.
Stock operating range is 15% to 90% on time - so short periods of 12v or 100% wont hurt.

The stock Lambda computer only has a limited range of activity and will disable itself under full load or extended marginal operation, so trying to fool the stock system would have the very high risk of the thing turning off at the wrong moment.

Also note the 044 pump and the stock CIS pumps have the same pressure and flow curves. The only difference being the different inlet on the 044 and the 044 is generally cheaper. There is a Bosch test results PDF link earlier in the thread, obviously a good new 044 might be better than a worn stock pump, but for the messing around I'd personally stay with a new stock replacement or change to the true 8bar motorsport pump from Bosch and not the 044.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-16-2016, 04:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #543 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaefer View Post
My stock '87 lambda valve is still in place however not being powered.
if the fuel head is unmodified and the lambda valve is functional but disconnected (unplugged) you now have the head running in max lean mode constantly
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-16-2016, 04:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #544 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
if the fuel head is unmodified and the lambda valve is functional but disconnected (unplugged) you now have the head running in max lean mode constantly
The fuel head is modified to the extent of balancing each cylinder AFR with the 6 adjustments. System pressure, warm control pressure, cold control pressure, and full throttle enrichment have been adjusted accordingly to compensate for the lack of 50% duty cycle from the lambda valve.

You're right though. That's why my proposed system should work. Currently the duty cycle of the lambda valve is 0% (disconnected). So any duty cycle above 0% should add additional fuel.

My car currently runs great with the simplified CIS system however I could use additional fuel above 5k RPMs. Once I get it I'd like to bump the boost up to 1 bar, dial it in again with additional fuel, then add your eWUR for more control over the entire system.
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1987 911 turbo
In the past - '71 T, '77 S 3.6, '80 SC, '88 3.6 cab
Old 03-17-2016, 06:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #545 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Scott,

The standard MicroSquirt firmware will not work to control the Frequency Valve properly.
The FV requires a constant frequency of around 100 cycles per second regardless of engine speed and an on/off ratio of +/- 50%, the staged injection is a timed squirt per revolution of the engine so the frequency varies with speed and the ratio is therefore too hard to control and too jumpy below 6000 rpm.
The FrankenCIS firmware has the fuel control required for both the FRV and eWUR and also does not need the eWUR at all if you are only interested in controlling the lambda circuit.

So start with FrankenCIS firmware from day 1, we've also written the firmware changes so you can switch the system between CIS modes and Normal EFI if you do feel the need to experiment.
This is great info. Isn't the 50% on/off ratio just the ratio that the lambda computer defaults to when it's not seeing a signal from the stock O2 sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
regarding the lambda control
From post 423 in this thread


replicating the static tests Eddie did with your 930 would be fairly simple, and safer than with a running engine on the road.
Stock operating range is 15% to 90% on time - so short periods of 12v or 100% wont hurt.
Gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post

The stock Lambda computer only has a limited range of activity and will disable itself under full load or extended marginal operation, so trying to fool the stock system would have the very high risk of the thing turning off at the wrong moment.

Also note the 044 pump and the stock CIS pumps have the same pressure and flow curves. The only difference being the different inlet on the 044 and the 044 is generally cheaper. There is a Bosch test results PDF link earlier in the thread, obviously a good new 044 might be better than a worn stock pump, but for the messing around I'd personally stay with a new stock replacement or change to the true 8bar motorsport pump from Bosch and not the 044.
You're again correct. However it's easy enough to change the input parameters to the stock lambda computer and get it to work in a non stock manner. I won't be going this route however as I want to learn the FrankenCIS/MS system to implement full control over my CIS system.

I did not realize the 044 pump and the stock CIS pumps have the same pressure and flow curves. Do you have a link to the 8bar motorsport pump?

Thanks again for all your help!
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1987 911 turbo
In the past - '71 T, '77 S 3.6, '80 SC, '88 3.6 cab
Old 03-17-2016, 06:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #546 (permalink)
 
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fuel pumps are
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en/de/produkte/catalog_products_1_579821.php

Fuel Pump FP 200, 5 bar
Order number 0 580 254 044

Fuel Pump FP 200, 8 bar
Order number B 261 205 413-01
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 03-17-2016, 06:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #547 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaefer View Post
Gotcha. A couple questions:

1. What's your name?!

2. What year is your 930 and describe what mods you have to the engine.

3. Hopefully your CIS engine is already well tuned without using a lambda system in low/mid RPMs/boost and you're simply looking for additional fuel from 5k to redline. If so then most likely our systems can be similar.

My '87 is currently set up with:

Short gears, K27/29 hybrid turbo, Garrretson half bay intercooler, stock 0.8 bar wastegate spring, RarlyL8 headers and muffler, adjustable WUR, and a simplified CIS system. My stock '87 lambda valve is still in place however not being powered.

If I'm successful in getting the new system working with stock boost then I'll probably bump the boost up to 1.0 bar then dial it in again. THEN add in the FrankenCIS WUR and continue with having FrankenCIS take over control of the full CIS system.
Loving this thread

1. Martin. Hi!

2. 86 USA/Cali. Airpump, air injectors removed and plugged, cat removed, B&B muffler, K26 turbo. Pretty close to stock. I have a set of RarlyL8 headers and a K27/29 arriving soon.

3. It had been richened somewhat for the slightly bigger turbo, completely by guesswork. Lambda and controller still connected.

My plan was to instrument the system first, without making any changes, and see where I am. To do that I will do the following:

1. Install the K&N cone filter in place of the airbox and mount the IAT inside it. I have a plan and if it works will post details.

2. Install the VW engine temp sensor somewhere :-)

3. Disconnect the thermo valve in the ToD area, and replace it with a T which will also feed the 3BAR MAP sensor. This would put it between the throttle body and the distrib.

4. 14point7 spartan2 WBO2 with the narrow band simulation going to the stock controller and the digi output going to the MS

5. RPM off the tach output connector in the rear to the MS

6. Power the WB02 and MS off the vacant fuse in the rear panel

If anyone has any better solutions please advise, particularly about MAP sensor placement.

I will then run for a while like that, with my current engine setup, and collect data and see where I am. From that point it will simply be a matter of literally swapping one connector to get the MS to start controlling AFR. Swap back and forth easily while I learn the system on a known-good (known-OK) setup before putting on bigger turbo.
Old 03-18-2016, 08:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #548 (permalink)
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I'm back to thinking this is a good strategy for my soon to need replacing WUR. I've priced the upgraded WUR for my year, add in a bung and AFR gauge for manual tuning and I'm within a couple hundred bucks of the Franken system.
So, that said my biggest fear is adding digital to my otherwise completely analog 1974 2.7L 911S. Add to that I'm strictly Mac computer literate, so how deep is the water here? I'll be upgrading the CDI to a MSD at the same time. I'm not concerned with adding ignition control at first, but the idea does appeal.
So, talk me on or off of the ledge here.
Many thanks,
-C
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #549 (permalink)
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Hi Charles,

It all depends on what you want to achieve and how much time and effort you are willing to expend to get those results.

FrankenCIS was created with a single primary goal in mind, allow CIS to be tuned and adjusted to suit non stock engine configurations, without the messy and inconsistent results from the traditional trial and error process of having to disassemble components and hit them with hammer.

So my honest view is, the solution you choose needs to fit your specific needs.

If the engine is stock, a good condition, unmolested and properly set CIS system should happily provide the fuel your engine needs.

If there are aspects of the stock system that are not quite up to modern expectations such as driveability or fuel efficiency then the ability to tinker with the features FrankenCIS provides may be a worthwhile trade for your time and money.

If the engine is modified then FrankenCIS begins to show real value.


The water can be as shallow or deep as you wish it to be. Original CIS and FrankenCIS can both be simple set and forget solutions.

In addition to nice things like data logging and visual engine status, FrankenCIS allows an ongoing upgrade path from basic CIS through to CIS-E and ultimately EFI
The tuning software is MAC friendly EFI Analytics Software Downloads | tunerstudio.com

I personally love the bullet-proof analog complexity of CIS, and by design FrankenCIS doesn't really mess with that simple mechanical reliability. Once we completed the development process I set my 928 to a comfortable factory tune and left it alone. It starts and runs perfectly every time I've take the car out for a run in the last year, out of site and out of mind but ready and waiting should a change ever be needed.

Installing FrankenCIS is more work than something like the BL-WUR but much less than EFI and the bonus is the Bosch WUR can be swapped back in at any time to revert the system to stock.

Do you need it? probably not.
Is it a useful and reliable system? yes.

For a stock engine, it's really a coin toss (50/50) proposition, so I've probably not been much help regarding your proximity to the ledge
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-01-2016, 04:26 AM
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Many thanks for the comprehensive explanation.

At this point car and engine are completely stock and are likely to stay that way for a while at least. I too have no complaints with the CIS system. Mine works fine for now, so the old sleeping dog rule should apply.

Like so many 2.7 owners I toy with the various strategies of upgrades / swaps, etc, but at the end of the day no matter how much hp one throws at it the suspension and brakes are still 40+ years old technology and the spending has just begun...

I do take the old girl out to the track 5 or so times per year, and when running flat out it's clearly running hot and lean. I eyeball the tailpipe and give the old CIS plunger an additional "click" to throw some more fuel at it on track days and then turn it back for street use. I plan to add an AFR gauge to add some science to this procedure before too long. When and if I go the Franken route I suppose we can piece together the kit and subtract the parts already present.
So, all that said, I guess as long as my WUR is behaving I'll let it do it's thing. When it goes south I'll re-start the whole hand wringing conversation....
Cheers!
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:12 PM
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MS tachometer/ignition input for 911 SC

I have read all of this thread, perhaps I missed something. I have a supercharged SC and I have a MSD 6A. It is currently connected to a MSD timing boost retard. I would like for testing purposes connect the tach output on the 6A or understand how to use phasing and let the MS feed the MSD unit. Its the current 6 pin plug feeding the MSD 6A with the green wire. It's my understanding that I can get up to 25 degrees of advance thru MS by locking the distributor. What I don't see is how the factory distributer output or tach is fed into the MS. Initially I just want the MS to have access to the Tach or the distributor signals while letting the MSD 6A and boost retard handle firing. I am wanting to run with the stock WUR and all the sensors connected to the MS for logging. I have two cars in the shop, both euros. One has the -097 fuel distributor without Lamda, and the other is a -077 with Lamda. Its sounding like I can get more fuel with the lamda head. Im close to going full EFI but for the purpose of easily switching back to stock I would like to keep CIS.
Old 04-17-2016, 06:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #552 (permalink)
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Simplest is what Megasquirt call basic trigger using the tacho feed
if the MSD tach output is 12v to 0v with a spike or dip per ignition event there are two options

OptoIn + to the tach feed between the MSD and tacho
OptoIn - to ground
(pins 30 and 31)

the same can be done with VRIn+ and VRIn- (plus to tach feed and minus to ground)
(pins 32 and 33)

later on with a locked distributor, the MicroSquirt VRIn pair can be used with the green wire directly and the microsquirt ignition output then connects to the MSD points input
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-17-2016, 06:53 PM
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MS and 911 SC Tach/ignition input

In the interest of saving time, I do not know what the output signal from the MSD 6A looks like, I could connect a scope to it but it seems somebody has already asked this and gotten an answer from mike. Gavinc69 asked this question in his post on his turbo SC. He specifically asked the question about the green wire on the 6 pin plug, and if the MS can run in parallel to the MSD 6A or there is another solution. He was awaiting an answer from Mike. since he got it working I assume Mike from DKUBUS already knows the answer to all the questions.
Old 04-17-2016, 07:47 PM
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ok, Gavin or one of the other members here might chip in, or you could quickly shoot Mike a direct email

info@dkubus.com
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-17-2016, 08:01 PM
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MS and 911 SC Tach/ignition input

I sent Gavin a message already. I also asked for his base tune that mike created as we have very similar setups. Turbo-Supercharger. I still have questions about using a Lamda fuel head as I have one on the floor. Is it possible to get mre fuel thru these? Also both heads I have are not in the charts you posted. The -077 (Lambda) and the -097 non lambda. does anyone have them?
Old 04-17-2016, 08:13 PM
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Awjens, emailed you the basic FrankenCIS file plus the two update files that Mike made for me.
I also did a sort of installation guide for the update files and some other needed changes to the setting that Mike worked on to get it working fully.

Hope it helps, let me know if you need anything else or help understanding my crappy install guide
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:36 PM
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What K-Jet Fuel Distributor's will fit?
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Old 04-18-2016, 02:39 PM
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CIS -077 with LAmda and -97

Does anyone know what the flow rates are on these two heads? Is it possible to get more flow utilizing control with the frequency valve on the -077?
Old 04-18-2016, 07:12 PM
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Frequency valve

Kaefer

Did you connect the frequency valve and do some volume tests? I am about to connect the MS to a -077 head I have for an SC and attempt to operate the frequency valve as Mike from DKUBUS suggested at 50%. I will do flow volume tests with it disconnected and with it operating. Looking for results to compare my findings to.
Old 04-23-2016, 08:32 AM
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