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Old 07-23-2014, 03:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quattrorunner View Post
I for one would love to see it remain 930 compatible.
That is the intention
Targeting boosted and non-boosted K/KE-Jetronic. If the theory works in practice it should make everybody happy.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-23-2014, 04:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sithot View Post
...I reckon you learn "how to" really fast!
a little bit of that and we seem to hear "That's Impossible!" or "Why would you do that?" as a direct challenge.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-23-2014, 04:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
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Parts are starting to arrive for physical testing

Fuel Distributors that will be used

1. 0 438 100 027 cast iron Porsche 928 non lambda

2. 0 438 100 088 alloy Mercedes V8 with lambda FV capable ports and restrictors

3. 0 438 101 018 alloy Mercedes V8 with CIS-E DPR valve control

The first two are WUR based system units the third is a standalone CIS-E. and I still suspect that #3 the CIS-E will be the preferred option for full system control, and the FV only option #2 may be the closest to the AIC and therefore simplest solution.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 07-29-2014, 10:57 PM
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Cool. Here we go.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:06 PM
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Nice!

Looking forward to the results.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:45 AM
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Old 08-06-2014, 04:34 PM
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Is the wide band you selected quick enough to run in a closed loop environment? I would think if they had that response time, every swinging dick would have done this by now. What about MAP inputs, or...
I really wish you luck making this work as I spend too many damn hours tapping and pulling on old WURs.
Old 08-06-2014, 05:16 PM
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
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I'm using an Innovate LC-2 so yes it should be happy running closed loop as it's a supported and recommended unit for the MegaSquirt. Map too.

The issue I think, creating the lack of success with other projects so far, is every attempt has used bespoke electronics rather than an existing EFI controller.

In the same way AIC have modified their additional injector controller for a fixed frequency and variable duty for CIS we have just altered the MegaSquirt per revolution variable pulse width to a fixed frequency variable duty, meaning we retain all of the VE/AFR mapping and target features. Translating the CP targets to VE or Duty% means from a tuning standpoint the MegaSquirt almost behaves like normal EFI with some minor differences in concepts depending on the application.

So in theory it should be fine, the big question is will it work in a real world installation
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-06-2014, 05:37 PM
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Please take my comments in the interest of open source!!!
Have you run a sim that models the response rate of the W/B O2 against the dynamics of an engine spinning 4, 5 or 6k? MatLab could do this in a heartbeat. That's a lot cheaper than a $20k donor motor.
There's a reason guys spend a small fortune developing maps for efi. Granted, you're trying to go from a steady state of ~1.7bar to ~3.0bar based on some temp values. That sounds easy when you say it fast but... What happens when boost comes on? Can you get to 2.7bar fast enough to make sure we don't melt our extremely girly flat top pistons?
I sure hope so! I'll sign up for two units ASAP! Heck, I'd even be one of your test subjects if you need one.
Old 08-06-2014, 05:49 PM
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^ the megasquirt forum is a great place to start. All of these discussions were covered long ago, even for Porsche. ��
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:06 PM
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Of course any and all technical input gratefully accepted

No modelling has been done as the largest unknown variable is the CIS hardware itself and how it responds to pressure changes.
It is well known the MegaSquirt can handle everything from daily commuters to turbo drag cars, Bonneville racers and superbikes spinning at ridiculous revs so the electronics should be fine.
We are programmers and engineers who love cars but are not "Tuners" so the MegaSquirt was chosen as better people than us have already done the fuel strategy development. Our test vehicle is a big lumpy, normally aspirated V8 so gross fuel volume can be logged against AFR and control pressure although boost response is obviously out of the question. I'm certain we cannot do any worse than the existing WUR and at least match the AIC hybrids and similar installations but it will certainly require a few brave and patient souls who know what they are doing to experiment on the dyno to prove this works for the forced induction targets.

What we do gain is the additional control afforded by the MegaSquirt system. Whether or not the WUR based CIS systems allow us to implement that advantage is still unknown.

from information gathered:-

The WUR itself is limitation point 1
- a drop in control pressure and therefore richer mixture is supposedly fast enough
- increases in pressure are dependant on the flow through the restrictor in the fuel distributor so have a lag according to Thierry25
- there appears to be a practical limit at the upper ranges of control pressure where CP gets close to System Pressure and therefore ceases to have an effect according to TurboKraft during their tests of the UTCIS

Lambda/FV is limitation point 2
- again a restrictor in the FD is in play here separating System pressure from the lower chamber pressure and the range of control is not yet known
- general information from previous modifiers seems to indicate FV has precise but limited control and WUR had imprecise but large impact on mixture

The mechanical side of the CIS system is the base map and this add on becomes the fuel trim. Scope and range has not been properly quantified by anyone yet that I can see.

CIS-E/DPR
This third generation CIS fuel distributor has been redesigned with single point electronic control only and is the only option that can physically change states quick enough for Bosch to do overrun fuel cuts without air bypasses or other mechanical patches - meaning fast response up and down and accurate mapping is available with this integrated unit.

Overall the CIS system has fuelling control limitations, any add on will inherit those limitations and have a positive or negative overall impact depending on tune and implantation. Building this system and bolting it on then going for a squirt will more than likely make something go bang without development and tuning. I would certainty implement a safety spark cut trigger on AFR going over or under safe limits as part of the install.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-07-2014 at 03:13 AM..
Old 08-06-2014, 07:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
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Thanks Kenik,

Separating detailed overall MegaSquirt discussion from specifics on this implementation will make things clearer for everybody following along.

So MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems for the basics and read up on the MegaSquirt in the features and documentation sections.
Specific docs covering the CIS features are underway and will be available in this thread and our website when ready.

If you feel the need to peek at the possibilities, download a copy of TunerStudioMS from EFI Analytics at tunerstudio.com
a sample CIS vehicle project can be downloaded from http://www.FrankenCIS.com/ms2extra/MS-FrankenCIS_sample.zip unzip it and open in Tunerstudio to play offline, no hardware required.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 11-25-2014 at 04:56 AM..
Old 08-06-2014, 07:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
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Further to the speed of pressure change discussion, and the relationship to available flow and volume in the control pressure circuits, a few factors may be important.

Pressure lines - on the 928 the WUR is around two feet from the FD so on the V8 all lines are small diameter steel tube, on the 911 the special Cohline nylon flex lines appear to be the norm, as they are a larger volume but shorter in length, line flex should not be an issue.

The UTCIS originally used a stepper motor which required time to spin between set points, the change in state of an injector is virtually instantaneous.

The UTCIS also utilised an analogue mechanical pressure sender. I've not had one of the exact units apart but based on similar units with he same cannister sizing there would be a small amount of pressure dampening as the diaphragm filled or emptied in response to changes in pressure. I'm using a digital sender with a dramatically smaller sensing chamber and therefore faster response with an advantage in accuracy.

How important is any of this? unknown and probably not worth verifying as long as the end result performs well enough.

As for the control valve or injector. Bosch used a 242cc injector for the Frequency Valve and the Andial kit that bypassed the WUR was 300+ but when Bosch released CIS-E or KE-Jetronic it was controlled by a DPR which I suspect is both high flow and fast response. We have one on the way for testing too
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-07-2014 at 03:16 AM..
Old 08-06-2014, 10:04 PM
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I'm not sure what Andial system you're referring to? The only Andial box I'm aware of put a 7th injector on the intake to further richen the mixture at higher boost levels because the fuel head could only flow x amount through the system.
As for a direct plug and play replacement for the WUR, it seems like a relatively simple system to model. Two inputs: temperature and pressure. One output to drive a variable fuel pressure regulator. The speed at which the data is collecting and converted should be a no brainer in the digital world. The hard part is finding the variable Fuel Pressure Regulator that will allow a preprogrammed increase in fuel pressure based on temp (from 1.7 to 3.0bar) and then a fuel pressure drop of 1bar as soon as the input detects an increase in MAP to show boost coming on.
Just replacing the WUR, and leaving everything else alone would be a very noble effort to support the continued longevity of these motors.
If you could make it all fit in an aluminum WUR body all the better for the purist. But for a breadboard a shiny little box would be fine. The MS might be overkill as you could probably handle all the logic required on a small micro IF you can find a digital, variable FPR.
Fingers crossed...
Old 08-07-2014, 03:58 AM
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Steve,
The 930 fuel lines from FD to injector are stainless steel.

IMHO, if you want max response times of CIS, everything should be sensored in real-time upstream. Throttle Position and Air Mass will insure fuel mixtures stay at optimal levels.

I share your view on UTCIS's stepper-motor approach to CIS. Stepper circuitry/motor are inherently laggy compared to other solutions, available torque for drives in such a compact unit could be problematic and voiced that to the guys at UnWired. And since it is somewhat easy to scramble a stepper's reference if torque is insufficient, I thought it was a bad solution.

Regarding the frequency valve/injector solution offered by Bosch and Andial; Bosch's approach was to help car manufacturer's meet ever increasing exhaust emission requirements at low engine speeds. Andial's solution was to help CIS richen fuel mixtures under boost.
DPR? I'm not as familiar with the later '86 and up CIS systems on 930's as I should be, but where is the Digital Pressure Regulator on a 930? Are you referring to the Frequency Valve?

I wish you had a Porsche 930 mule engine to do your research. Technically, you could run the engine in NA mode initially by running a cheater pipe from the metering head to throttle body to get your baseline and then reconnect the charge line back up to the throttle body to MAP your boost settings.
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
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Thanks Dave,

Is the stainless still flex, i.e. braided or are they hard lines? Sadly most of my 911/930 research up till now has involved photos.

Agreed, the Frequency Valve in the lambda systems were definitely only a patch for emissions but do have potential for tuning in conjunction with the WUR or WUR bypass.
The CIS-E DPR is possibly the secret weapon in all this. Do a google for CIS-E or KE-Jetronic, Bosch in the last iteration of CIS eliminated the WUR and went full electronic control of the fuel distributor with a proper ecu. It ran in the merc V8s until the early 90s. I picked up a Mercedes FD via eBay US for under $200 and it's slowly winging its way here. (The CIS/lambda one that is here now for $50)

If the initial tests look good I'll ask the motorsport fellows I know at the Porsche Club here if there is a CIS 930 that wants to be a guinea pig, otherwise someone over the pond needs to have a go
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-07-2014, 04:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSPTurtle View Post
I'm not sure what Andial system you're referring to? ...
The Andial injector I refer to has been used by some with a Split Second AIC1 for control refer to Thierry's thread electronic-cis-fueling-boost-control for detail.

As for the rest, this is deliberately a full hybrid mapping system for K-Jet/CIS, others have tried the little silver box solution and, yes, to replace a broken WUR it might be ok, but it could be so-much-more which is why this project is happening.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-07-2014, 04:43 AM
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Steve,
They are stainless hard lines from FD to injector.
This is where we may run into problems. I believe Porsche only used the "ECU" to control lambda at idle. Back in the late 1980's and early 90's, the U.S. DOT/EPA were only concerned with emissions at low engine speeds, i.e. stop and go traffic, so Porsche spent only so much money on a system they knew they had to replace in the near future.

If we (Porsche 930 owner's), have to convert fuel systems from Bosch type to another Bosch type, it may not be to our advantage in the long run. It may be time to bite-the-bullet and go EFI.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 08-07-2014, 04:43 AM
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