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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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design overview is at Frankencis and triggering Bosch CDI

as far as I'm aware no-one has tried it yet, as most have gone for either MSD or individual coil control.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-23-2016, 03:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #581 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
IAT should be taken from the same point that air is measured, so as close to the CIS air plate as possible. The Air cleaner box is a good spot.
Just remember that because CIS has the air metering plate it is already adjusting itself to air density. We suggest initially setting Air Density correction to zero correction or 100%.
So IAT can be used for fine tuning but is not as important as it would be if we were installing a normal injector based EFI system.
I have the K&N truncated cone filter installed. I was originally planning on mounting the IAT sensor in the filter itself, just ahead of the air metering plate. I'm also considering mounting in the rubber elbow on the back side of that plate.

Are there any pros/cons to either location?
Old 09-01-2016, 07:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #582 (permalink)
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If "IAT" is intake air temperature then it should be measured after it has been compressed by the turbo compressor housing and wheel and gone through the intercooler.
Compressing air raises it's temperature and the compressor housing and wheel is already hot because of heat transfer from the exhaust turbine housing and turbine wheel that is a couple inches away.

I probably read the previous post wrong because CIS and EFI are both mentioned in it.
Old 09-01-2016, 08:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #583 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
If "IAT" is intake air temperature then it should be measured after it has been compressed by the turbo compressor housing and wheel and gone through the intercooler.
Compressing air raises it's temperature and the compressor housing and wheel is already hot because of heat transfer from the exhaust turbine housing and turbine wheel that is a couple inches away.

I probably read the previous post wrong because CIS and EFI are both mentioned in it.
This is a FrankenCIS question. I'm told the air temp should be measured closest to the point of metering, which would either be right before or right after the metering plate. So either in the air filter or in the elbow to the BOV or turbo once that BOV is gone.

This is not a true EFI installation. My TK intercooler has a fitting where I can mount a second IAT sensor.
Old 09-01-2016, 11:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #584 (permalink)
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"This is a FrankenCIS question. I'm told the air temp should be measured closest to the point of metering, which would either be right before or right after the metering plate. So either in the air filter or in the elbow to the BOV or turbo once that BOV is gone."
Well that's wrong if air temperature readings are important to you or your fuel injection system because with both air temp locations you listed in your post you're measuring air temperature before it's compressed by a hot turbocharger and before the intercooler if there is one.
Cold start, steady cruise, and idle wouldn't matter but if correct air temperature readings while boosting matters for AFR calibrations it's the wrong location.
Old 09-01-2016, 01:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #585 (permalink)
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I think the error is in the documentation. Since the initial launch of FrankenCIS was targeted for NA K-Jetronic/KE-Jetronic systems, it wasn't updated for forced induction Jetronics.
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Old 09-01-2016, 03:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #586 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Intake Air temp (IAT) and Manifold Air Temp (MAT) are both important things to measure for any engine.
What we need to consider is if and where they are needed in the fuel calculation.

In a speed density EFI System, the only way the engine can measure the amount of incoming air is to calculate using pressure & temperature against RPM and Volumetric Efficiency. So generally MAT is the important measurement along with manifold pressure, so the MAT sensor should be very close to the point in which the MAP sensor is connected. The end result is still a calculated guess, but that's all we have available in simple speed density systems. If we want to get really picky, external barometric pressure/temp, intake manifold pressure/temp and exhaust back pressure measurements are all needed to accurately represent the true mass of air in the cylinders.

With CIS, because the air plate is actually a Mass Airflow Sensor, the above speed density calculation is not required. The air plate is measuring the weight/volume of incoming air and altering the fuel delivery ratio to suit. Therefore FrankenCIS is now not responsible for the base fuel calculation and delivery and actually performs a trim function with the additional sensor information available.

Assume the air plate and fuel head is delivering a theoretically correct AF ratio, then manifold Pressure is now a representation of actual air in the manifold and therefore a multiple of CIS calculated air/fuel in the engine. Manifold air temp is now a variable in calculation of true boost pressure rather than necessary for determining fuel delivery.

For trim purposes on a Normally Aspirated engine, sensor placement near the Air Plate is sufficient, for a boosted engine the sensor should be placed in the airflow as close to the MAP sensor point as possible but insulated from engine heat. Optionally the IAT/MAT sensor can be disabled in the settings and used purely for data logging or even never installed if you wish.
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-01-2016, 03:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #587 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Intake Air temp (IAT) and Manifold Air Temp (MAT) are both important things to measure for any engine.
What we need to consider is if and where they are needed in the fuel calculation.

In a speed density EFI System, the only way the engine can measure the amount of incoming air is to calculate using pressure & temperature against RPM and Volumetric Efficiency. So generally MAT is the important measurement along with manifold pressure, so the MAT sensor should be very close to the point in which the MAP sensor is connected. The end result is still a calculated guess, but that's all we have available in simple speed density systems. If we want to get really picky, external barometric pressure/temp, intake manifold pressure/temp and exhaust back pressure measurements are all needed to accurately represent the true mass of air in the cylinders.

With CIS, because the air plate is actually a Mass Airflow Sensor, the above speed density calculation is not required. The air plate is measuring the weight/volume of incoming air and altering the fuel delivery ratio to suit. Therefore FrankenCIS is now not responsible for the base fuel calculation and delivery and actually performs a trim function with the additional sensor information available.

Assume the air plate and fuel head is delivering a theoretically correct AF ratio, then manifold Pressure is now a representation of actual air in the manifold and therefore a multiple of CIS calculated air/fuel in the engine. Manifold air temp is now a variable in calculation of true boost pressure rather than necessary for determining fuel delivery.

For trim purposes on a Normally Aspirated engine, sensor placement near the Air Plate is sufficient, for a boosted engine the sensor should be placed in the airflow as close to the MAP sensor point as possible but insulated from engine heat. Optionally the IAT/MAT sensor can be disabled in the settings and used purely for data logging or even never installed if you wish.
So to clarify for this installation on a turbo charged intercooled engine the IAT should be placed basically in the cold end of the intercooler and NOT by the airflow sensor?
Old 09-01-2016, 04:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #588 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Yes
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-01-2016, 04:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #589 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Yes
Glad I asked that question multiple times before I started drilling!

Also glad I've had TK add that fitting to my new 'cooler.

Attempting to get TS to talk to my MS right now. Feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole with running Windows 7 on Fusion on my MacOS 11 box just to get the USB serial driver to talk to both MS and TS!!!!!
Old 09-01-2016, 05:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #590 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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have you tried the Apple version of TunerStudio?
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-01-2016, 06:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #591 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
have you tried the Apple version of TunerStudio?
Its not TS, although the apple version GUI looks crude. Its getting either of my usb serial adapters to work under Mac OS with tunerstudio and the MS. Driver support for them on windows is oooooooolllld. I finally managed to find a Windows 7 VM on my NAS backup, installed a 32bit driver in compatibility mode, installed TS and it works. A might slow but I'm progressing.

Questions:

1) Under barometric correction where its asking for upper and lower limits, are these the max and min values I expect to see for local barometric pressure(local weather) or the man and min pressures I'll see in the intake plenum when running?

2) for CIS with lambda I should select "dual tables", correct?

3) K-jetronic control pressure base map, this is where I model the stock WUR?

4) In the FrankenCIS manual under Injector Dead Time the Freq Valve Duty to VE(%) is greyed out and set to 0.5 For my K with Lambda it is NOT greyed out, and the value is 6.6. What goes here?

Thanks

PS I'm going to write the whole installation up with pics and screenshots so you'll only have to answer once I hope

Last edited by flightlead404; 09-02-2016 at 05:03 AM..
Old 09-02-2016, 04:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #592 (permalink)
 
umop apisdn
 
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Firstly, my usual disclaimer - I'm not a tuner or a MegaSquirt authority in any way.

#1 - on the general settings page i'm not sure, from the wording it looks like it could be either? The MSExtra manual may help here

#2 - Dual tables provides separate maps for the eWUR and Frequency Valve. It can share one table but is best done with two. Set them both to all 100 in the cells to begin with.

#3 - Yes this should begin with the stock WUR curve in kPa

#4 - the manual screenshot is not in Lambda mode so that bit is disabled. The setting is a ratio of VE to FV duty so I'd start with 0.5 in the box, meaning a change in the VE table value of 2% will change the frequency valve duty by 1%. Remember VE is between 1 and 200 with a centre of 100. The frequency valve has a range of half that (1 to 100 and centered on 50% )
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-02-2016, 05:31 AM
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Steve

Caveats understood.

It is unclear from your manual or the other manuals which input is used to take RPM from the green wire on distro with a stock CDI, or what the appropriate settings in TS should be.

Any guidance here?
Old 09-02-2016, 07:45 AM
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Only one air temperature (AirT) sensor should be necessary, and that's post-intercooler, measuring the temperature of the air entering the engine. Trim tables are setup based on temp, usually adding fuel and pulling timing as AirT rises.

As for ambient AirT, that information may be interesting, but what are you going to do with it?
You've already compensated for it in your tuning using the post-IC AirT sensor.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #595 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
Only one air temperature (AirT) sensor should be necessary, and that's post-intercooler, measuring the temperature of the air entering the engine. Trim tables are setup based on temp, usually adding fuel and pulling timing as AirT rises.

As for ambient AirT, that information may be interesting, but what are you going to do with it?
You've already compensated for it in your tuning using the post-IC AirT sensor.
My plan is only to use one air temp. The post-intercooler one. The original question was based on prior statements that the IAT should be taken close to the metering plate.
Old 09-02-2016, 10:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #596 (permalink)
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ok I took the graph from the "how to test fuel pressures" section of the workshop manual for my engine 930/68 (1986 cali car with most emissions removed):



and put this into Tuner Studio.



Look reasonable?
Old 09-02-2016, 02:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #597 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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The WUR curve looks good

If you intend to control spark then the green wire should be connected to VR1+ and VR1- on the microsquirt (pins 32 & 33)
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsquirt_Hardware-3.4.pdf
page 48 chapter 5.2.2 VR (magnetic) sensor input
Bosch CDI box control method will depend on the box, 3 pin should be easy, 6 pin will require some trickery and experimentation

for fuel only use, the green wire can be left connected to the CDI as is and the tachometer output of the CDI is then attached to OPTOIN+ and OPTOIN- should be grounded (pins 30 & 31)

There are variations on this if needed but the above are the standard configurations
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-02-2016, 03:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #598 (permalink)
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ok I'm about to feel stupid I know it.....

How do I tell TunerStudio that I'm running forced induction? All the AFR and VE tables go to 100 kPa which is basically atmospheric. I want to run the tables up to 200 kPa at least, for 1 bar.

I can't find a setting, I've looked in manuals, I've checked the interwebz......

I know I'm missing something funda mental here.
Old 09-04-2016, 01:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #599 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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It's simple but not obvious at first glance.

The table axis values need to be changed to suit
On the bottom left corner of each table is a button with a 90 degree bent double arrow on it
Press that and the X & Y axis values for load and RPM or whatever can be edited
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-04-2016, 02:12 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #600 (permalink)
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