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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
nearly there

on the fuel settings "Injector dead time/PWM" page
bring "Control Pressure to VE(kPa)" down to 0.5
and leave "Freq. Valve duty to VE(%)" as 1.0

this will soften the control pressure feedback swings but the primary cause of the hunting appears to be the acceleration enrichment setting

TPS Acceleration enrichment is bouncing around and the wur is trying to accommodate it

zero out the MAP and TPS enrichment tables added MS


for the wideband calibration using the INNOVATE LC1 (Default) should be close enough
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-29-2016, 08:48 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #701 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
nearly there

on the fuel settings "Injector dead time/PWM" page
bring "Control Pressure to VE(kPa)" down to 0.5
and leave "Freq. Valve duty to VE(%)" as 1.0

this will soften the control pressure feedback swings but the primary cause of the hunting appears to be the acceleration enrichment setting

TPS Acceleration enrichment is bouncing around and the wur is trying to accommodate it

zero out the MAP and TPS enrichment tables added MS


for the wideband calibration using the INNOVATE LC1 (Default) should be close enough
Thanks Steve, I'll try that. Control Pressure to VE was originally 0.5 but 1.0 made it smoother. However I did not fool with the enrichment, so I'll try what you describe and report back.
Old 12-30-2016, 09:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #702 (permalink)
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OK more good progress. I set the MAP and TPS enrichment to a flat horiztonal line, changing the "added" fields to 0 on both graphs. I also noticed the WUE was a really weird sawtoothed looking graph. Flattened that for the time being also. I noticed one or two other settings that were garbage, so I think I might had still been suffering from some corruption that happened when I was attempting to use the WUR power to power the MS. I also have TPS sensor grounded now.

I had a good cold start, only one shot at it and it fired right up. I never got the two sets of voltages from the AFR controller for calibration, so set it to an Innovate LC1/LC2 and used the default 0v=10:1, 5v=20:1 setting.

Once I had that set, I tried some warm starts. At first it was just hard starting, but as the engine got hotter as I played with mixture it became impossible to hot start. What I found was through experimentation that with an external battery hot starts are fine, with the dedicated power I've run from the "Switched" buss in the front trunk, power is momentarily interrupted going from Crank to Run. This causes the MS to restart. IDK why it worked ok for cold start, but it isn't working for hot start. Works perfectly with an external battery.

I'm thinking I may try and pull power from the delayed action relay where the CDI is powered. That I'm pretty sure does not get interrupted during starting.

I have a pretty smooth idle now around 900-950 RPM at about 14.2:1 AFR. Control pressure is not hunting like it was, the duty cycle on both injectors pretty stable, although everything is still hunting slightly its no worse than with the stock WUR in place.

Q1: Regarding the AFR gauge on the tuner studio dash. Right now I'm using EGOVGauge to display the voltage, which appears to be behaving as expected. I want to display AFR, I know I can do this, but can't figure out how. If I try and use AFR1Gauge its just nonsense off the top at 128.5 Looking at the logs I see AFR is also steady at 128.5. Somehow the input voltage is not being evaluated as AFR. What's the trick?

Q2: I notice that in General Settings, Incorporate AFRTarget is greyed out. It is set to include AFTtarget so does that mean it will always be attempting to hit the AFR when inside the windows I've set in Fuel Settings->EGO Control?

Here's a couple of logs. One from a smooth idle, one from some throttle blipping.

Current settings.

Last edited by flightlead404; 12-30-2016 at 06:13 PM..
Old 12-30-2016, 05:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #703 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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AFR1Gauge should indeed be the channel for the Gauge, from the logs the value is pegged at max of 128.5, so as the voltage channel is behaving it may just be a calibration issue

When you calibrate are you selecting the LC1 and then pressing the "Write to Controller" button?

try the second last item "Custom Linear Wideband" and set the voltage and afr values manually and see if that fixes the output



also double check the stoich ratio setting as that is used for the AFR math
Engine and Sequential Settings
then press the Required Fuel button and check the last field is 14.7

__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-30-2016, 07:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #704 (permalink)
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I'm guessing its a calibration thing too. Yes, I'm writing to the controller, but I'll try the custom WB settings when I capture the calibration voltages tomorrow.

If I get the power wiring worked out and fix a rear drop link I may get to drive a little tomorrow and see what autotune does for me.
Old 12-30-2016, 08:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #705 (permalink)
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Some observations (no logs unfortunately):

I got a cold start today, it was hard to start. First two times it cranked, kicked, died. Third time it caught.

It idled at 1,100 rpm control pressure ~300kpa, eWUR duty cycle ~90. Control pressure was steady. Higher eWUR duty cycle should lower the pressure right? Looks like it was trying to but no luck.

RPM very slowly increased. I let it idle for almost 10 minutes and as it climbed the WUR curve the idle increased slowly to over 1,500 rpm. Example data point, Control pressure was ~295 although the target control pressure is 250, with a high WUR duty cycle at 87%.

Blipped the throttle once at this point, idle dropped to ~1,050, seemed to stay steady for several minutes. Blipped it again a few times, idle dropped to ~950. Control pressures dropped when I blipped.

When I shut the engine off ("run" to "on"), the frequency valve continued to buzz rather than shutting off, TS showed a duty cycle of 47%. I suspect this is a bug in the code that needs to be corrected. I've noticed it before. Duty cycle should be 0 when RPM is 0.

I calibrated the AFR with a custom wideband using the initial voltages the Spartan puts out during its warm up phase. Still cannot get TS to recognize it as an AFR, even though the voltages behave exactly how you would expect. It is wired to the pink AFR1 sensor. This is my next show stopper I think. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, and the fact that TS crashes, hangs, or resets my computer every 20 minutes doesn't help.

I've spliced into the red/white power line from the delayed action relay to the CDI, but have not had a chance to test it yet, my Touareg barfed up a lung today so I spent all my time on that.

Steve, questions for you:
1) Confirm higher eWUR duty cycle should lower control pressure
2) What is the recommended lower rpm threshold for EGO control? Should it be under EGO control at idle? I have adjusted the mixture so it idles at around 14.2:1 w/o EGO control
3) Any recommendation on the other EGO control thresholds like CLT, or above/below MAP?
4) I've set my duty cycle min to 10% and max to 90%. Any reason to go higher or lower on any of these? DC was maxed when CP was high.

Last edited by flightlead404; 12-31-2016 at 03:15 PM..
Old 12-31-2016, 02:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #706 (permalink)
 
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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
higher eWUR duty = lower control pressure

on mine it was easily able to pull down to around 200kPa on a cold start, so it might be worth looking for possible blockages or restrictions in the lines

for ego control, the recommended RPM seems to be around 200-400 RPM above normal idle
CLT should be normal warm for the engine
MAP and TPS should be in the part throttle to cruise range of values

Basically the closed loop mixture control is normally only active at part throttle and/or cruise

the megasquirt manual reference is Megasquirt2_Setting_Up-3.4 page 68

I personally had the feature turned off on my installation and "Incorporate AFR" was also off most of the time. We simply used the Tuner Studio self-tune feature to coarse adjust the VE tables then manually adjusted where needed to refine on the road or dyno

the 10-90% duty cycle range defaults can be extended if you wish, try upping the max to maybe 95, just be aware that the open and close reaction times of the injector normally mean that above 90% duty it's going to be fully open anyway so that last 5-10 percent will have no real impact on the flow
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 12-31-2016, 05:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #707 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
higher eWUR duty = lower control pressure

on mine it was easily able to pull down to around 200kPa on a cold start, so it might be worth looking for possible blockages or restrictions in the lines

for ego control, the recommended RPM seems to be around 200-400 RPM above normal idle
CLT should be normal warm for the engine
MAP and TPS should be in the part throttle to cruise range of values

Basically the closed loop mixture control is normally only active at part throttle and/or cruise

the megasquirt manual reference is Megasquirt2_Setting_Up-3.4 page 68

I personally had the feature turned off on my installation and "Incorporate AFR" was also off most of the time. We simply used the Tuner Studio self-tune feature to coarse adjust the VE tables then manually adjusted where needed to refine on the road or dyno

the 10-90% duty cycle range defaults can be extended if you wish, try upping the max to maybe 95, just be aware that the open and close reaction times of the injector normally mean that above 90% duty it's going to be fully open anyway so that last 5-10 percent will have no real impact on the flow
General Settings->Incorporate AFR is greyed out and set to "include AFRtarget". It doesn't appear that I have the option, unless there's another setting somewhere that would make this available to be altered.
Old 01-01-2017, 08:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #708 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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to alter the setting, change it back to normal port injection to activate the incorporate AFR box
then flick it back to eWUR/Lambda
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-01-2017, 09:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #709 (permalink)
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Thanks Steve, happy new year. Studying the Megasquirt guides this am, came up with a few more questions.

Q1. In FCIS does the MAPdot time based accel enrichment curve have any effect/use? Once base tune is set in VE tables, is it something I should plan on tuning? Does the system react fast enough for this to make a difference? Is there a CIS component that handles this?

Q2. For WUE, is this now managed by the lambda valve or the ewur injector or both?

Q3. Higher lambda valve duty cycle means richer, the opposite of ewur duty cycle?

Q4. Things like WUE, ASE talk about adding time or pulsewidth to change mixture. Since the FCIS doesn’t work that way, it works by changing control pressure, how do these settings work in FCIS?
Old 01-01-2017, 09:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #710 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Q1. In FCIS does the MAPdot time based accel enrichment curve have any effect/use? Once base tune is set in VE tables, is it something I should plan on tuning? Does the system react fast enough for this to make a difference? Is there a CIS component that handles this?
The Air plate and mass of the moving parts performs this function normally with CIS and does it quite well, the MicroSquirt acceleration enrichment can be brought into play to enhance or tune as needed.

Quote:
Q2. For WUE, is this now managed by the lambda valve or the ewur injector or both?
Both
, particularly because the eWUR has the temperature referenced pressure table as a base, therefore Warm-Up Enrichment and After-Start etc. are simply optional modifiers in the toolbox

Quote:
Q3. Higher lambda valve duty cycle means richer, the opposite of ewur duty cycle?
eWUR, higher duty = less control pressure = richer
Freq. Valve, higher duty = less lower chamber pressure = richer

Quote:
Q4. Things like WUE, ASE talk about adding time or pulsewidth to change mixture. Since the FCIS doesn’t work that way, it works by changing control pressure, how do these settings work in FCIS?
the majority of the mixture change settings are percentage based calculations so we simply multiply the base Control Pressure or Frequency Valve values by the modifier
where they are not percentage based we still allow the MicroSquirt to factor that in and pull out a percentage equivalent.

Basically the MicroSquirt code is operating in most cases as though normal EFI injectors were in place
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-01-2017, 05:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #711 (permalink)
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Connected to the power from delayed action relay to CDI. This works great and prevents resets when the ignition key moves from Crank to Run, and the subsequent corruption that seems to happen sometimes. It makes hot starts work correctly.

Removed dedicated ground strap from battery negative to MS. MS is thoroughly grounded to engine block, tested and the additional grounding made no difference other than minor calibration change to AFR.

Still stuck with no AFR, and I don't think I can move any further until I correct this as TS does not see AFR even though the AFR voltages are correct, are displayed, and AFR is calibrated. Stumped.

Tuner Studio displays correct voltages in the egoVGauge gauge, but switch it to AFR and its solid 128.5 which is the number represented as AFR in the logs. Checked with the guys at DIYAutotune and they say its and issue with firmware or .ini. Steve, any ideas?

Last edited by flightlead404; 01-03-2017 at 01:37 PM..
Old 01-03-2017, 06:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #712 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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It looks like one of the reflash or AFR calibration attempts has stored some corrupt internal data in the tune file

I loaded your tune on my test unit and it immediately locked afr to the 128.5
after a bit of low level file comparison, two internal settings were the culprit and have been reset and tested

Mike is sending you a fixed version of your tune with the required changes via email
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-04-2017, 02:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #713 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
It looks like one of the reflash or AFR calibration attempts has stored some corrupt internal data in the tune file

I loaded your tune on my test unit and it immediately locked afr to the 128.5
after a bit of low level file comparison, two internal settings were the culprit and have been reset and tested

Mike is sending you a fixed version of your tune with the required changes via email
Excellent news, thanks Steve.
Old 01-04-2017, 06:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #714 (permalink)
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Cold Start Observations

OK, now that I've got power wired to the delayed action relay my hot start issues seem to be gone. Cold starting is a different story. Here are my observations, and a log attached.

Cold start attempted with outside air temp around 60*f, engine completely cold soaked.

Caught and died on the 1st two attempts, started on the 3rd turn of the key. But, a very low and lump idle, around 450 rpm for a few seconds then suddenly kicked to a smooth idle around 950rpm.

After that it crept quickly to 1,150 then more slowly up to 1,400 as the engine warmed up. It did not show any sign of stopping that slowly increasing rpm.

During this time the Control Pressure was significantly higher than target. Example data point on the control pressure curve that mimics the WUR curve, target was 190, actual pressure was 290. During this entire time the eWUR duty cycle was pegged at 90% (the max I've set), with the frequency valve duty cycle at 49%. None of guages (CP, eWUR DC, FW DC) seemed to change much during this time.

When the WUR curve hit a target control pressure above 290 the eWUR DC started to reduce and the CP started tracking the target. Idle stayed high. FV DC didn't appear to change much.

Seems the eWUR injector can't get the CP below 290 and the FV is not helping at all during this phase.

As soon as I blip the throttle it goes right to a ~950 rpm idle relatively smoothly.

Log

Last edited by flightlead404; 01-05-2017 at 09:48 AM..
Old 01-05-2017, 09:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #715 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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sadly the attached log file contained no data

if you increase the max allowable DC to 98% or more does the control pressure result below 290 improve? It's possible the WUR may require a larger flow capacity injector, but the 930 control pressure circuit should not be significantly different to the other Bosch variants

also note that warm up enrichment and after start settings in the last supplied tune file are all turned off and both maps are still flat 100 so there is little to no compensation happening outside of the base WUR pressure curve
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-05-2017, 04:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #716 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
sadly the attached log file contained no data

if you increase the max allowable DC to 98% or more does the control pressure result below 290 improve? It's possible the WUR may require a larger flow capacity injector, but the 930 control pressure circuit should not be significantly different to the other Bosch variants

also note that warm up enrichment and after start settings in the last supplied tune file are all turned off and both maps are still flat 100 so there is little to no compensation happening outside of the base WUR pressure curve
Awww rats. Don't know what happened. Must have overwritten it grr. I'll get another tomorrow or Saturday.

IDK about the duty cycle. I will put the max to 98% and see what happens.

If it needs a larger injector could you make a suggestion and I'll try that also.

Yes, I set them all flat thinking the best way to start would be mimicing the known-good WUR curve.

But how would adjustments there help? We've already seen the eWUR injector can't handle it. Or would that cause the freq valve to come into play?
Old 01-05-2017, 06:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #717 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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adding warm up and after start settings will bring the FV into play

primary problem to resolve though is why it can't seem to bring the control pressure down below 290
can you pop the injector out and check the filter screen is clean, also is the 10mm control pressure intake adapter at the eWUR clean and unrestricted inside
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-05-2017, 07:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #718 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
adding warm up and after start settings will bring the FV into play

primary problem to resolve though is why it can't seem to bring the control pressure down below 290
can you pop the injector out and check the filter screen is clean, also is the 10mm control pressure intake adapter at the eWUR clean and unrestricted inside
I'll disassemble the WUR and verify its clean before trying again.
Old 01-05-2017, 07:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #719 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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the dodge injector we are using is rated at 262cc/min or 25 lb/hr

stock red top dodge Viper injector is 29lb/hr
48lb and 52lb injectors are available from FiveO Motorsport for the Viper which would be a direct drop in to the eWUR
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/us-euro-high-performance-fuel-injectors/dodge/viper/

if an increase in the max duty cycle setting does indeed lower the minimum control pressure a bit (and a decrease to 80 or so increases) then injector flow is probably the cause. I'm going through the available data logs I have here from our early testing to see where the DC was at 220kPa
The higher 930 system pressure might be a factor in the discrepancy between yours and the installs elsewhere
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 01-05-2017, 08:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #720 (permalink)
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