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Alan L's Avatar
 
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The mess above is near what I had. And it did affect AFRs. I tried a damper too - no effect. I suspect the high pressures in the WUR line and spring rate needed accordingly made it too insensitive to relatively small fast swings - ie couldn't keep up.
Good luck - You have battled thru to some good progress. It must all be do-able. Getting close.
But given the complexities of getting this right with modern technology, I still scratch my head at how Bosch made a system to work at all based on mechanicals. Not perfect, but a brave effort.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 02-08-2017, 11:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #761 (permalink)
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for a clean comparison
injector pulsing before a damper was added to the eWUR design


and
current version 2 eWUR and 5.5.6k firmware


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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-08-2017, 11:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #762 (permalink)
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Steve, could there be a problem with the sampling of data by the ECU? Isn't it possible that depending on the time event, that the ecu could sample a high event, compensate and then sample a low event and wind up chasing its tail, so to speak?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #763 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
Can you just take the WUR off of autotune, figure out what duty cycles give you what CP with no plate fluctuations, and then set the duty cycle to that, with a warmup curve and a boost curve?

If you plate is bouncing and it is trying to chase it, wouldn't setting the duty cycle solid let it bounce and fluctuate but still keep an aveage CP of your set duty cycle? More like a regular WUR..

I think I would try tuning the CP manually to get you close to what ARF you want but a bit rich/safe all the way through boost, set that and forget it, and then use the FV tuning to lean it out as much as you dare to make the best power and achieve the best fuel efficency..

I'm not real familiar with what you can and cannot tell the MS to do for you yet so I don't really know..

I can make circuits alright but I'm not experienced in doing more professional style automotive connections, what do you suggest? Any resistance problems with solder? How should I do these?

Hope I'm not disrupting your tuning conversation too much..
This issue is nothing to do with autotune, happens with or without it. autotune is just adjusting the VE table tweak the base (ie builtin mechanical) fuel map to achieve the AFR map.

I do not believe my plate is bouncing. Any flutter in the plate would be microscopic, to achieve what we're seeing here, and what was observed with greater amplitude, but the same period more or less with the smaller injector, the plate would have to be moving significantly. The hydraulics won't allow that.

I suggest getting weatherpack connecters and getting the high end ratchet crimper tool. A properly crimped connection is mechanically superior to a solder only connection. Solder does not add resistance. Enclose wires or bundles of wires in abrasion resistant woven sleeving and use double wall adhesive lined shrink wrap. I like to use waxed lacing cord to tie up bundles as well, about every 4-6". Gives it some rigidity.
Old 02-09-2017, 06:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #764 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Thanks Alan,
This isn't the injector hammering we saw in the early testing before we added the fuel damper, this is a slow and steady once per second surge or cycle.

Our injector is running at 100 cycles a second and the pressure /duty feedback loop is on 1000 cycles per second so I'm comfortable it's not injector pulse related

from appearances it's a nice cyclic curve in control pressure with a 3 or 4 pound swing +/- our target. we might be able to tune the control/feedback loop to hit harder and arrest the wobble or attack it in another way by not trying to correct a deviation that lasts less than a second.
Or adding the factory damper in the control line could be an option if it's not there now.

Hang on, Flightlead404 - is the factory damper in the circuit on your car? I had one on mine that had to be removed as it was shuttling a pulse between the original system damper and the eWUR integral unit

Primary question out there now is - is AFR being affected?
IF AFR and idle/running is good then a wobble visible at the WUR may not be affecting the fuel delivery at all
If we lock the duty cycle to an assumed pressure as Eddie suggested and UTCIS did on their unit we lose the damping effect of the PID control and probably still have the wobble in the pressure.

this mess below is from post 100 and no damper at 1/10th of a second sampling
This is the same pulsing seen with the smaller injector, only its significantly lower amplitude. Previously I saw large swings in RPM. Now, the RPM swings are there, but not enough to be that noticable on the stock RPM gauge. The MS RPM readout being much more sensitive does show it. You can hear it in the engine note.

I do not have a factory damper, I do have the damper in the eWUR block.

I don't have the data in front of me, but I believe AFR is bouncing. Since AFR is a slow to react sensor, is it possible its chasing the AFR not the target CP?
Old 02-09-2017, 06:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #765 (permalink)
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OK, here's some more data.

First, I reset VE table 2 to 100s and set both VE and AFR tables to the same size, 12x12
Auto tune is off and EGO correction authority set to 0

Temp is in the 40fís and the car hasn't been started in a couple of days. Thoroughly cold soaked. Here's the first start through the top of the WUR curve. I don't touch the throttle at all until the final blip which makes the idle speed drop. I just turn the key. Car starts perfectly on the 1st crank. No pulsing in RPM noticeable to the ear or on the factory RPM needle.

resetVE1stColdStart.msl

Next I shut the car off and as quickly as I could reset logging in TS I attempt to start it again. There are two log files for this as it didnít start until 3rd crank. Once started it idles nicely at 14.2 AFR and 950-1000RPM. The RPM fluctuations in the logs are small enough that they are not reflected on less sensitive stock gauge or heard in RPM.

Still don't know why the previous auto-tune attempt made such drastic changes in the idle bins when its almost exactly what the AFR targets are.

immediateWarmCrankNoStart.msl
3rdCrankWarmStart.msl

Then I let the car sit for 5 minutes with the rear hatch closed. Everything should be warm now, probably not what you'd call "hot" though. Car started on the 1st crank but with a highish idle. Did not appear to display the creeping idle I saw previously on any of these starts.

5minSoakWarmStart.msl

Now I'm going to start the autotune process over, but set the minimum RPM for the auto-tune to 1,300 RPM. I'm going to lead the fuel load 0-400.
Old 02-09-2017, 10:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #766 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
I do not have a factory damper, I do have the damper in the eWUR block.

I don't have the data in front of me, but I believe AFR is bouncing. Since AFR is a slow to react sensor, is it possible its chasing the AFR not the target CP?
When in Dual Table Mode the eWUR is disconnected from any AFR/EGO compensation so no it will not be chasing any AFR fluctuations
Target CP is the channel to watch to see if it is reacting to any additional stimulus, and in the logs it's nice and steady
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

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Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-09-2017 at 02:01 PM..
Old 02-09-2017, 01:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #767 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
OK, here's some more data.

immediateWarmCrankNoStart.msl
the logs all look good except for this one
It seems the injector is still getting overloaded or held open by the high system pressure under some circumstances

Crank1 and crank2 were equally bad, crank 3 was nice

increasing the minimum duty from the current 20 to something just under the warm running average, say 30, might give it a head start to minimize the effects of any fuel pump and accumulator inrush
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-09-2017, 02:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #768 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
When in Dual Table Mode the eWUR is disconnected from any AFR/EGO compensation so no it will not be chasing any AFR fluctuations
Target CP is the channel to watch to see if it is reacting to any additional stimulus, and in the logs it's nice and steady
I may be on to something, working getting logs for this, but it doesn't see to agree with your above statement.

2 hours later than the previous starts I went and restarted the car. This time I was getting the wild swings in eWUR duty cycle and control pressure. This was definitely resulting in pulsing in RPM and the stock needle going up and down. It exhibited all the symptoms of before, it was much worse at idle/in overrun, loading up would dampen it out some, but it would return when going back on idle.

All the parameters were exactly the same as before, nothing had been changed or adjusted either in the MS or with the engine. Engine temp was the same, target CP the same, mid-range on the RPM, eWUR d/c, CP the same. The only thing that was different was that my AFR was for some reason up around 15.6. I have no idea why, nothing should have changed. There was minimal/no pulsing in the FV d/c, which was sitting roughly at 50%.

If the AFR was the only thing different, and in dual table mode only the FV is used to target AFR, why was CP and eWUR d/c bouncing all over the place?

I will set the min eWUR d/c to 30 and the max to 95% and see if I can duplicate everything with logs.

Last edited by flightlead404; 02-10-2017 at 07:33 AM..
Old 02-10-2017, 07:30 AM
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ok some more progress.

I kept thinking about the fact that I'd see different AFR's under exactly the same engine operating parameters (all the ones I have sensor on), MAP, RPM, CLT, OAT, MAT, CP etc etc and thinking "There's no reason why the AFR should be different".

So, I started futzing with the harness for the WBO2, turns out there was a weak crimp, when I moved it, the AFR would jump a point or two. Anyway, re-crimped the connector and so far have not been able to reproduce the pulsing. Don't have much time on it yet, so not conclusive but at least strongly suggestive.

If that is in fact fixed, the only remaining issue is hot starts. They are awful. Typically takes 3-4 cranks to get it going, and only if I really crank it for a long time. Changed the min eWUR duty cycle as suggested, no difference at all.

Steve, any further ideas on this?

My understanding is the accumulator in the fuel line is intended to keep pressure on the fuel system after the engine is shut off for a while to prevent boiling of fuel in the lines and help with hot starts. Do you think that has anything to do with it? I don't think that mine is bad, certainly hot starts with the stock WUR were not a problem at all.

Let me know what logs I can collect or tests I can perform to resolve this last bug. I'm in San Fran for RSA Conference this week, I can play with it some more when I return.

Thanks
Old 02-12-2017, 07:24 PM
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It would be interesting if you could find out if its hard starting hot if it's from an over-rich or lean condition. Have you tried partially opening the throttle with a warm engine?
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Last edited by WERK I; 02-12-2017 at 07:38 PM..
Old 02-12-2017, 07:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #771 (permalink)
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It's unlikely the accumulator is an issue

Watch the actual Control Pressure during start-up, from the earlier logs the initial few warm cranking events showed CP pegged at round 100PSI, I still suspect there is an overpressure or inrush issue when the fuel pumps startup that is holding the injector shut.

With such a high CP there will be no fuel delivered and as it's warm the Cold Start Injector is not providing any help for the initial kick to pull the air plate against the CP resistance

for peace of mind, I'd remove a variable by reintroducing the original Bosch WUR instead of the eWUR, and look at bringing the eWUR into play later in the tuning phase if required.
Especially as you know the Bosch WUR works and our tuning target is focused on the Frequency Valve anyway
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

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Old 02-12-2017, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
It's unlikely the accumulator is an issue

Watch the actual Control Pressure during start-up, from the earlier logs the initial few warm cranking events showed CP pegged at round 100PSI, I still suspect there is an overpressure or inrush issue when the fuel pumps startup that is holding the injector shut.

With such a high CP there will be no fuel delivered and as it's warm the Cold Start Injector is not providing any help for the initial kick to pull the air plate against the CP resistance

for peace of mind, I'd remove a variable by reintroducing the original Bosch WUR instead of the eWUR, and look at bringing the eWUR into play later in the tuning phase if required.
Especially as you know the Bosch WUR works and our tuning target is focused on the Frequency Valve anyway
Didn't think it would be, but I thought I'd toss it out there.

Not sure what you mean by "inrush". In my car the fuel pumps run for a second or two when you go to the "run" position, to bring pressure up. In the last few starts I've gone to "run", paused for a second or two for the pumps and to make sure MS is online, then gone to crank. Where are you talking about "inrush"? When cranking starts, around 150 RPM, or when the engine fires?

I can try putting the original WUR back in place. Its not the elegant solution I was looking for, but its worth a try I suppose.

I'm unclear on your statement about "no fuel being delivered". If the eWUR injector is being held shut against 100psi (Is that really likely? I know EFI systems run at high pressure, would have thought 100psi was not that far out of that range), that would mean we'd be at high CP potentially, meaning a lean system. But "no fuel"? I find that unlikely. How is a held shut eWUR injector any different than a stock WUR that doesn't have any way to bleed pressure off at all? High system/control pressure is not going to hold the CIS injectors shut, so a rev or two during cranking and that pressure should be off the system, right? I'm not sold on that idea.

If I do put the stock WUR back in place, my WUR has an enrichment that happens based on MAP (not sure if all turbos do, but certainly mine does) I forget where exactly that occurs. It seems to me that it would be better to leave the MAP line disconnected from the WUR and control that enrichment entirely with MS/FV. The entire purpose of going this direction was to have the ability to tune for the optimum AFR across the spectum, without having the big jumps and so forth that the Leask WUR+RPM switch has, and to avoid the "pig rich in some areas to avoid being lean in others" problem.

Thoughts?

Last edited by flightlead404; 02-12-2017 at 08:30 PM..
Old 02-12-2017, 08:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #773 (permalink)
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stock efi pressure is usually 45 psi and most quality injectors seem happy to operate normally up to around 75 or more
there are several YouTube videos comparing counterfeit injectors against genuine and the Chinese knock-off will generally shut down as pressure rises over 60, according to the fellow on the video Bosch will usually run up to 120 (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ne6AVnF2k )
Delphi/Siemens-Deka should be similar to Bosch

I only have the logs to go by so the pressure plateau we are seeing on the sensor log may be something other than a stuck needle.
But Cranking and therefore low battery voltage and therefore limited voltage for the injector to work with against the high fuel pressure points to it not opening under those conditions

as to the no Fuel delivery, I should say "little to no" as there may have been some, but there could also be none
The air plate needs to move a little away from the resting point to begin the fuel flow. With a massive CP and little vacuum when cranking, it's possible the plate and arm did not move enough to provide enough fuel to open the injectors

the ImmediateWarmCrankNoStart log
showed a 13.3AFR and control pressures peaking at 702kpa (103PSI) @ 90% duty on the first run
cranking at 240rpm which seemed to catch but die after peaking at 1000RPM
the second was similar but cranked longer at 310RPM no catch

If the AFR can be trusted - and as there was a loose connection then I'm guessing by the flat line and same AFR that it was probably peaked at max lean not 13.3 - then I'd say there was little to no fuel delivery

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Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

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Old 02-12-2017, 09:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #774 (permalink)
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Did Five-O supply test data with the injector and was there any pressure/delivery data ?
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-12-2017, 09:41 PM
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Maybe you can use the cold start injector to give it a bump enough to move the airplate at first if I understand correctly that getting a little fuel flowing is sufficient to drop the pressure enough to get your WUR injector to run..

Also, the original WUR is a major factor in residual pressure because it is the lowest line of defence to hold pressure back.. With your injector when you shut it off only your system pressure regulator is left to bleed off pressure, but at a much higher pressure..

What are your residual pressures during these hot start attempts?
With the EWUR I see potential for it to hold system pressure level residual pressure instead of control pressure level residual pressure.
The Cold start injector may be sufficient to dump enough pressure to get your WUR injector running, if the cold start injector will even fire at the high pressure just like your WUR injector..

If it's from voltage drop during cranking maybe a little power capacitor in the injector's power wire could help?

Steve, do you use the cold start injector on your car?
Do you think I should keep or delete the cold start injector on my setup?
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:46 AM
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Yes I use the cold start injector under control of the stock time/temp switch
Definitely retain it in your installation

Like the mechanical WUR we are tracking CP rather than trying to maintain a specific duty cycle, so as you can hopefully see prior to cranking the duty is sitting on the minimum setting with CP steady at 261kPA

CP starts rising immediately after the cranking begins and duty cycle begins rising as soon as CP crosses the red target line
CP rise slows until we hit max duty 1.5 tenths of a second later then it pegs at max pressure

the 3rdCrankWarmStart log unfortunately begins with cranking already underway so I can't see if there was a similar spike and it just recovered but the tiny little pressure wobble in the first second indicates it may have been a full turn of the key from OFF to Start

of particular interest is the AFR difference between 1&2 on the first log and 3 on the second
in the first the Wideband sensor has warmed up, the second log shows it going through the high/low calibration output, again supporting a clean quick start from OFF

Maybe the Prime/Pause/Crank versus the later immediate start is the key,
but then the very last 5minSoakWarmStart log is perfectly behaved and also includes three and a bit seconds of ignition on before cranking and doesn't exhibit the bad CP behavior from the log image shown above
Same starting pressures and duty
Same voltage drop to 10v
and same nice little pressure wobble and tracking as the 3rdCrankWarmStart log

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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

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Old 02-13-2017, 03:47 PM
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I think I need to generate another set of logs now that AFR sensor has been corrected. I'll take notes as well.
Old 02-14-2017, 11:20 PM
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Hot Start Issue - More Clues

OK, I have some more data and repeatable behavior. I really don't think this is an issue with pressure holding the eWUR injector closed, I think its a computer/software issue or maybe something that can be solved with settings somewhere.

I've just done 30 hot starts, both starting as fast as I can restart logging in Tuner studio (~20) and some where I let it sit 5 mins after running Aka hot soaking (~10). The same behavior is repeatable with no difference between immediate and hot soak.

Note when I say "immediate start" I don't mean turning the key from off to crank. In all cases I have to go to run, start logging, then crank.

The behavior is this: If the computer is allowed to power off and back on again, the next hot start will not work. It will crank, catch, then die. If the computer is kept powered up between starts the engine starts beautifully.

Also, I note that pre-start the CP is reading in the 310 kpa range, during cranking it spikes to a high number, then after cranking returns to its roughly 310 kpa point. I believe we are seeing a voltage drop out during cranking which is causing a false sensor indication.

After reviewing the logs, the above statement is incorrect. Pre-start in all cases the actual CP is around 265-270. The spiking behavior is different between starts and no start attempts. Details below
Logs later.

Last edited by flightlead404; 02-19-2017 at 04:19 PM..
Old 02-19-2017, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #779 (permalink)
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Just in case it isn't well known, you can start the logging process in TunerStudio before the MicroSquirt is powered up
TunerStudio will just wait until data appears, and happily pause between runs.

Regarding the false sensor indication comment, from memory your CP sensor is 12v fed rather than being fed from the 5v sensor power from the MicroSquirt. Depending on the internal circuitry of the unit it may be unhappy with the voltage drop during cranking and either getting confused or shutting down.
Most automotive rated equipment - including the Microsquirt, have what is called a Low Drop-Out (LDO) voltage regulator. Meaning the 5v output is stable down at a one to two volt differential between input and output. Therefore at 7v we still get a stable 5v output from the Microsquirt, and if the sensor is without the LDO rating it may be unhappy at 10v or more.
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Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-19-2017, 03:15 PM
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