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Steve

I replaced my CP sensor with the 5v sensor powered from the MS. The ground goes to the MS sensor ground. I did that replacement a long time ago, so all of this testing has been with the 5v sensor. OK, based on your comment above we can assume for now there isn't a voltage drop out. Anyway I looked in the logs, it drops from 12.5 to 10.2 when cranking starts so s/b still in the range you mention.

Here is a screen shot from hot start #19 (no start) and #20 (start).




There isn't much difference, the ones that I observe are:
-Initial target control pressure 311 on #20, 354 on #19 - Why 354 s/b 310?
-In #20, control pressure peaks at 379 and immediately starts to drop off whereas #19 peaks way higher and stays high along with duty cycle
-In #20 duty cycle peaks at 65% and drops off

In the non-start attempt control pressure appears to jump 404 kpa in 0.189 of a second. Is this really feasible? That sounds like an unbelievably high rate of change to me.

Also note in #19 even though the engine has caught and died, and you see RPMs descending back to cranking speed, the control pressure stays extremely high for over 1 more second, which doesn't support the theory that the brief engine firing is consuming enough fuel to lower CP.

Here are the logs from today, starting with a cold start.
Old 02-19-2017, 04:30 PM
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umop apisdn
 
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ok using #19 and #20 there may be some data points that are common to the problem

right at the point that pressure spikes we have some odd numbers
the Target CP at 354kPa also has a VE1 of 10 and not the expected 100
VE2 is also 10
FUEL Total correction transitions from 100 to 95

Target CP drops to 311 at the same time as the actual CP ramps up

Although the older 5MinSoakWarmStart log exhibited the same numbers but did start ok
if VE1=10 and CP target of 354 is common to all the no start runs then we might have at least some circumstantial evidence to work with

can you look through the others and see if the pattern follows between starts and no-starts

the roller pump should be able to ramp fuel pressure up that quickly, it would be nice to match the CP log to actual pump status though
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

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Old 02-19-2017, 06:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #782 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
the roller pump should be able to ramp fuel pressure up that quickly, it would be nice to match the CP log to actual pump status though
Brain to words failed here

I was thinking it would be nice to see if the drop after peak CP was related to the fuel pump running and then stopping
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-19-2017, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
ok using #19 and #20 there may be some data points that are common to the problem

right at the point that pressure spikes we have some odd numbers
the Target CP at 354kPa also has a VE1 of 10 and not the expected 100
VE2 is also 10
FUEL Total correction transitions from 100 to 95

Target CP drops to 311 at the same time as the actual CP ramps up

Although the older 5MinSoakWarmStart log exhibited the same numbers but did start ok
if VE1=10 and CP target of 354 is common to all the no start runs then we might have at least some circumstantial evidence to work with

can you look through the others and see if the pattern follows between starts and no-starts

the roller pump should be able to ramp fuel pressure up that quickly, it would be nice to match the CP log to actual pump status though
I'll check some more logs tomorrow, so far the few I've looked at all look the same.

I suppose I could use an optoisolator to set a 5v signal low when the fuel pumps come on, but assuming the air plate is moving, the pumps s/b coming on as soon as the engine starts to rotate and there's less than atmospheric in the intake plenum.
Old 02-19-2017, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Brain to words failed here

I was thinking it would be nice to see if the drop after peak CP was related to the fuel pump running and then stopping
Right, gotcha. Same response, I could try and fab up some sort of hi/low logic input I suppose. Non-trivial effort however. I could tee in at the overboost pressure switch I think, with a dropping resistor and a 4N25 optoisolator, and connect to one of the analog inputs on on the MS. It's doable, I'll bake on it a bit.
Old 02-19-2017, 07:33 PM
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Log #13 has two failed starts and a good start in the same log file.
Old 02-19-2017, 07:43 PM
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just a couple of resistors in a divider configuration should be sufficient say 10k and 1k
or just a test light and eyeball it would do

the fact that both #19 and #20 show the same ~13.2 afr but the CP differs so much between the two has me still wondering what are the mechanical factors in play as pressure rises and falls
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-19-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
just a couple of resistors in a divider configuration should be sufficient say 10k and 1k
or just a test light and eyeball it would do

the fact that both #19 and #20 show the same ~13.2 afr but the CP differs so much between the two has me still wondering what are the mechanical factors in play as pressure rises and falls
You probably know better than I but I'm not sure I'd trust the AFR that early in the sequence. The Spartan2 gets power when the engine starts turning. In fact, its powered right now by the original WUR power supply. So, its not on until crank and then it takes some time to boot up, including its calibration sequence.

Not sure why that would matter anyway, as the EGO correction is disabled at that RPM and MAP anyway.
Old 02-19-2017, 08:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #788 (permalink)
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cool I can ignore the AFR data
it will be the Spartan calibration output then giving the consistent output each time
it goes high/low to fixed values on startup for verification of ecu calibration
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-19-2017, 09:30 PM
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Steve

Any further thoughts on this? Anything we can try to get to the bottom of these hard start issues?

It seems like once its running I'm tracking AFRs reasonably well, although I'd like to do some WOT pulls through 3rd gear to confirm. But the hard start issues are unacceptable to me at the moment.

I was thinking of putting the original WUR back in this weekend and testing. That will mean no eWUR injector to control, and no control pressure sensor readings.

What should I change or how should I configure the MS/Tuner Studio?
Do you recommend leaving the MAP based boost enrichment on the WUR connected or disconnected and solely using the FV? I was planning on connecting it.

Thanks
Old 02-24-2017, 09:31 AM
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Avid follower here.....
Is it possible to hook up the original Lambda control back in and use the factory frequency valve? Would that help you isolate problem quicker?
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:47 AM
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Avid follower here.....
Is it possible to hook up the original Lambda control back in and use the factory frequency valve? Would that help you isolate problem quicker?
No. The frequency valve is being used to adjust +/- from the base mixture set by the WUR and other system components to meet the AFR targets and get adequate mixture control for the new turbo/exhaust/intercooler.
Old 02-24-2017, 12:38 PM
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Nothing substantial or new as far as thoughts
the VE=10 anomaly on initialization seems to be a factor of the stock MegaSquirt table lookup function, I'm trying to replicate the outcome here and so far no luck
I'm still leaning heavily toward the injector being held shut at x pressure
Porsche added a hot start bleed valve to the Euro 928S control pressure circuit around '80 which bled pressure during cranking if the engine was warm. 928 605 103 00 Simply a solenoid valve connected to the cranking power circuit and through a temp switch. 924s apparently used the same item as a retrofit kit to solve hot start issues.


Swapping the stock WUR back in should require no changes to the Tune/Configuration within FrankenCIS, CP duty will swing to max or min but as there is nothing connected to the output the system will be happy.

If you wish to still track CP via the sensor something like this re-tapped for 1/8npt worked for me during the initial development HEL Radial Master Cylinder Adapter Kit

and a pic for the hot start valve for posterity
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-24-2017, 07:47 PM
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928 CP circuits
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-24-2017, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
Do you recommend leaving the MAP based boost enrichment on the WUR connected or disconnected and solely using the FV? I was planning on connecting it.
This one will need some experimentation, and the below suppositions are based on tid-bits of information across the site here

With it connected - as long as the results are consistent between activations and the FV tune accommodates it, having it connected can only have one possible downside that I can think of. And that is the possibility of the lower control pressure allowing the air plate and control piston to extend past max travel and start leaning out.

With it disconnected - control pressure and therefore air plate movement should be restricted and the Frequency Valve would then be the sole controller of mixture variations.
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-25-2017, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
This one will need some experimentation, and the below suppositions are based on tid-bits of information across the site here

With it connected - as long as the results are consistent between activations and the FV tune accommodates it, having it connected can only have one possible downside that I can think of. And that is the possibility of the lower control pressure allowing the air plate and control piston to extend past max travel and start leaning out.

With it disconnected - control pressure and therefore air plate movement should be restricted and the Frequency Valve would then be the sole controller of mixture variations.
I put it back in yesterday. I did have to change the base mixture setting, but I expected that as I set the control pressure in tuner studio based on a idealized model of the WUR, not the actual WUR. I connected the WUR to the manifold pressure line thinking that it gives a reasonable base tune, and can use the FV to do +/- over that. Started with all 100s in the VE2 table and started some tuning.

So far, starting issues seem to have gone away.

I may try and fab up a fitting to monitor control pressure.
Old 02-26-2017, 07:48 AM
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Fascinating. This is getting very close! Congrats!

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Old 02-26-2017, 03:39 PM
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Cheers, standing by if needed
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 02-26-2017, 03:55 PM
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Steve,

after a long time doing nothing with the car;
started up, tach signal is still working but;



whats with the cp pressure and target cp

greetings Mike
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Last edited by hight; 03-12-2017 at 10:00 AM..
Old 03-12-2017, 09:51 AM
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As things appear to be winding down, I'm wondering if one of you would consider creating a digest of your work in this thread: the final components you used, the biggest challenges to overcome, and your tune file. I'm setting aside a week in June to do this conversion and would happily append the documentation.

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Old 03-12-2017, 10:21 AM
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