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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 513
Hi, The limit for each version of the fuel head is not known but your target of 300 to 350 should be possible by controlling the stock CIS-E system

The M103 and M104 had two commercially available twin turbo kits.
Mosselman used an analog piggy back controller to enrich the stock KE-Jetronic settings
TurboTechnics used additional injectors that were controlled by Hobbs switches and an analog stand alone controller.
Both used small turbos, Mosselman KKK's and TurboTechnics Garrett T2's.
Mosselman had a top mounted intercooler and TT a low chassis rail mounted IC.

a UK Mercedes dealer (Hughes of Beaconsfield) sold the TurboTechnics twin turbo kit for the M103/4

the Mosselman kit operated at 0.5 BAR
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-15-2017, 05:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #861 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Welcome, Rital24. I purchased a V8 Mercedes distributor for my 930 very cheaply. Best way to find out is test what you have and monitor your air/fuel ratios. If you run out of fuel, time to upgrade. I went for the MB unit because it has Lambda, which with eWUR should be over 500HP capable.

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Rital

I don't know much about the MB, but if it has a lambda you have a lot of flow control with high/low duty cycles.

I'm guessing I'm close to 330ish right now with .8 bar, a K27/29, headers and free flow exhaust and I'm not getting close to the limits on the lambda valve duty cycle. In order to approach 500hp I'd need to put in new cams (this winter I hope) and bump the displacement and either/both static compression ratio or boost level.
Old 05-15-2017, 05:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #862 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 513
KE3-Jetronic or CIS-E is the fully electronic controlled last generation CIS without WUR

The Differential Pressure Regulator (known as DPR or EHA) on the side and the more advanced ECU provide around double the range of control available in the older Lambda systems

Merc V8 (and the same setup as retro-fitted to my 928)


and below is from a Mercedes W124 300E
[/
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-15-2017, 05:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #863 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: North of Exit 17
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The was a Mercedes V8 CIS-E FD on eBay 5 mins ago for $250. Now mine.

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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 05-15-2017, 07:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #864 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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with air plate housing?

there is a 10mm flat area on the CIS-E venturi that is important and the external pressure regulator is required as well if converting from CIS basic/lambda
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 05-15-2017 at 08:42 PM..
Old 05-15-2017, 08:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #865 (permalink)
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Ok thank you all.

Steve I know all the possibility to convert M103/104, as you said mosselmann and TT used additional injectors, this mean that the stock system was insufficient to compensate the fuel request.
If with your Fcis you use stock injectors,pump,pipes,distributor how is possible to have so much flow only managing the EHA?
More pressure at same throttle position I suppose.
Is that sufficient?
Old 05-15-2017, 08:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #866 (permalink)
 
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Only TurboTechnics used additional injectors
Mosselman used the CIS-E but with an analog tuning device to trick the CIS-E ECU into providing more fuel
This was in the early 1990's so technology used was very simple and inaccurate
the old interceptor boxes I have seen simply multiplied the EHA current by a percentage to provide more fuel than the ECU planned

FrankenCIS takes direct control of the EHA valve and can provide up to 212 mA of current to open the valve much further than the original ECU could or would

On my 928 I'm running with the Volkswagen offset of +30mA and my mapping varies on average +/- 20mA around that 30mA base so there is plenty of room to go richer if required

Overall total fuel flow limit is still a question not answered, but the ability to tune between full rich and full fuel cut at all load points and RPMs is something they could not do in 1990 but we can now
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-15-2017, 09:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #867 (permalink)
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Ok this comfort me.

Now is possible to use a megasquirt MS3X instead of microsquirt?

This because I intend to control my lpg injectors in full sequential mode.
Old 05-16-2017, 04:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #868 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Sorry,
FrankenCIS does not work with the MS3 code and processor, so Not compatible with MegaSquirt 3

We are limited to the MS2 and MicroSquirt variants only
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-16-2017, 05:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #869 (permalink)
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Finally I've ordered the device.

Now I need to find map and temperature sensors.
Please could you indicate to me which model to buy?
Maybe code numbers?
Old 05-20-2017, 08:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #870 (permalink)
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Best bet is to look at the megasquirt websites and use what they recommend.

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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 05-20-2017, 08:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #871 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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the GM 3 bar map sensor seems to be the most popular for standard boosted applications
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/map-gm-3-bar-map-sensor/

Temperature sensors should be standard Bosch items with an appropriate metric thread for your engine, the stock coolant temperature sensor might be usable if you can manually calibrate it

If you need, the link in post 1 for the 100PSI digital fuel pressure sensor is still valid and points to
Pressure Transducer or Sender,100psi 0.5-4.5V, for Oil,Fuel,Diesel,Gas,Water,Air | eBay

As Kenikh kindly posted, it's a good idea to research similar MegaSquirt EFI installations for your engine and duplicate the sensor configuration where needed
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-21-2017, 02:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #872 (permalink)
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Interesting to note the angle of the metering plate in the MB units. Looks that they found a way to overcome the problem of stalling at large opening.

Get some more exotic unit for my future conversion:
Anybody can guess the donor?

Old 05-21-2017, 05:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #873 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I'll play

Rolls or Bentley around 1990 ?
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-21-2017, 06:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #874 (permalink)
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Yep, latest of the Bentley turbo R (same as RR), few different models of metering plates.
Interesting setup, blow through and knock management from the KE-motronic.
Old 05-21-2017, 02:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #876 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesch View Post
Interesting to note the angle of the metering plate in the MB units. Looks that they found a way to overcome the problem of stalling at large opening.
The plate angle seen on the KE / CIS-E units is due to the change in the cone shape

KE / CIS-E fuel heads have an o-ring seal at the bottom of the piston bore to eliminate possible fuel leaks when the engine is off. This requires an area of piston travel between the seal and before fuel starts flowing, there is a corresponding ~10mm vertical portion of the cone to draw the plate down (or up in updraft setups) to the equivalent K-Jetronic rest point on cranking the engine.

Those contemplating upgrading to KE / CIS-E must also have an appropriate matching air housing as the later heads will not operate correctly if installed on an early housing
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-21-2017, 03:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #877 (permalink)
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The lower housing is very peculiar comparing to the Porsche unit to CIS-E. The CIS-E underbody is all plastic, so am unsure how it would affix to the motor.

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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 05-21-2017, 07:42 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #878 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
Finally I've ordered the device.

Now I need to find map and temperature sensors.
Please could you indicate to me which model to buy?
Maybe code numbers?
Just get the ones from diyautotune.com
Old 05-21-2017, 07:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #879 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
The lower housing is very peculiar comparing to the Porsche unit to CIS-E. The CIS-E underbody is all plastic, so am unsure how it would affix to the motor.
Porsche 928, Porsche 930, and Mercedes v8 all use the same Bosch upper housing casting
for a 930 the top half of the Mercedes CIS-E housing simply replaces your existing CIS unit

the plastic Mercedes lower portion is discarded and the Porsche lower is used with the Mercedes upper
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 05-21-2017, 07:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #880 (permalink)
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