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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
if you mean the "air plate" in the housing under the fuel distributor, then no, as it is required to move the piston within the fuel distributor.

The air plate is used by CIS and CIS-E for primary airflow measurement and resultant coarse fuelling
FrankenCIS is controlling the fine adjustments from either the WUR, Frequency Valve or DPR/EHA
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 06-22-2017, 10:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #921 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Perfect. Thanks!

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Old 06-22-2017, 10:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #922 (permalink)
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Garage
Meter plate is moving the piston from the "rest" position so there will be some other thing involved.
However, the KE DPR is able to perform fuel cutout at deceleration, so there's maybe enoug adjustment to regulate fully the flow by the KE system.
Old 06-23-2017, 01:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #923 (permalink)
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Hi everybody,

Before to install the device I'm involved in resolving some issues.
I've a self made diagnostic tool with whom I found 2 errors:
Code 9 ( O2 sensor shorted to positive or ground), and code 17 ( current to Eha is illogical).
I've already installed new O2 sensor and new injectors, all original parts.
Any ideas?
I would to have the Cis perfect before to install this device.
I appreciate any suggestions.
Old 09-10-2017, 02:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #924 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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you might have the error definitions reversed depending on the model

Code 9 is the EHA
Code 17 is the O2 sensor

the best would be to follow the Mercedes test procedures contained in
http://www.frankencis.com/portals/2/FrankenCIS/Testing the KE Injection System.pdf
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 09-10-2017 at 04:09 PM..
Old 09-10-2017, 04:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #925 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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for those considering a conversion to KE-Jetronic, the following Ferrari manual is the best I've found so far for detail
http://www.frankencis.com/portals/2/FrankenCIS/Bosch KE3-Jetronic 539-89 Injection System Manual 328 Mondial.pdf
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-10-2017, 04:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #926 (permalink)
 
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Thank you Steve for the handouts.


I've also 10% error code checked with multimeter on X/11.
This could be throttle position error or airflow sensor.

The first one seems ok.

The airflow potentiometer has good voltage at idle (0,75 v) but high resistance between pins 2/3 : 6 Kohm in rest position instead of circa 0,6-0,8 Kohm.
Between 1/3 pins I read 1600 ohm
Could this be a problem?
Old 09-12-2017, 12:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #927 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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it will be a problem for the original system, a common failure and available cheaply from eBay etc.

search for part numbers 3437224035 or 3437224015

example http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Air-Flow-Meter-Sensor-Throttle-Position-for-Mercedes-Benz-3437224035-3437224015
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-12-2017, 02:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #928 (permalink)
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Hey Steve!
I just spent more than an hour trying to understand the way you control the pressure inside these blocks.
The best I found so far are these pics here
Digital WUR plus? ( FrankenCIS )
but still, can't understand. On other photos you have two contacts as on the ordinary WUR. Does it mean you basically have the same type diaphragm as on the ordinary WUR, and you control the pressure by some sort of solenoid, which is then controled with PWM from microsquirt?
Do you have some closeup photos of the inside?
Old 10-09-2017, 03:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #929 (permalink)
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Stupid me! Got it! I only had to reread the initial post! Now, the question is, is this pressure dampfer really needed? While looking for local price for that part number, I bumped into numerous reports when that sucker started leaking! (Toyota? is that hi-pressure fuel rail? can't even imagine the possible consequences of such a fault on CIS)
really cool concept and excution!
one small sidenote. microsquirt, $300 something - hobbyist/DIY? NO! Arduino - yes!
Old 10-09-2017, 04:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #930 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi,

Yes, the damper is needed for FrankenCIS, and age related leaks do sometimes happen after a couple of decades of use. Simply inspect periodically as part of normal servicing, as you would with all fuel components.
Many OEM manufacturers such as Mercedes and Toyota ran caps or drain lines from the damper to minimise the possibility of fuel squirting around the engine bay.


The Toyota cover ^^

Roll-your-own using an Arduino is of course an option some have taken, but at the end of the day you will be hard pressed to match the MicroSquirt for price and features. The MicroSquirt is well within the range of acceptable automotive rated electronics, and reliability is an important factor to consider.

Also for the eWUR, per the initial posts in this thread there are simpler DIY alternatives to what we have created. It all depends on how DIY you want to be
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 10-09-2017, 06:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #931 (permalink)
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What are these simpler options?!
Well, compared to 25usd for injector and 15aud for the pressure sensor, ~$100 local pricetag for a dampfer is a bit too much.
In the discussion there was "FD end" term - FD stands for feed?
What's the purpose of this dampfer? Remove pressure fluctuations caused by injector? Am I right in understanding that all of them (pressure sensor, bigger hole of the upper two holes, the side channel of the fuel injector and the dampfer) are connected to one chamber?
Have you published the model of your metering block? (Panning and tilting it freehand makes it much easier to understand the way it's been machined)

Next, has anyone made calculations with formulas to learn the duty cycle on the injector needed for a certain pressure drop? Or this figure is different depending on the initial pressure? If it is PID-regulated, then it's nice to know these very P,I,D?
I lost my sleep because of this project))
Old 10-10-2017, 02:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #932 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puff View Post
What are these simpler options?!
Well, compared to 25usd for injector and 15aud for the pressure sensor, ~$100 local pricetag for a dampfer is a bit too much.
In the discussion there was "FD end" term - FD stands for feed?
What's the purpose of this dampfer? Remove pressure fluctuations caused by injector? Am I right in understanding that all of them (pressure sensor, bigger hole of the upper two holes, the side channel of the fuel injector and the dampfer) are connected to one chamber?
Have you published the model of your metering block? (Panning and tilting it freehand makes it much easier to understand the way it's been machined)

Next, has anyone made calculations with formulas to learn the duty cycle on the injector needed for a certain pressure drop? Or this figure is different depending on the initial pressure? If it is PID-regulated, then it's nice to know these very P,I,D?
I lost my sleep because of this project))
You could do an arduino if you really want to roll your own. Not sure if there is a 'duino that is suitably hardened for use in an engine compartment, but I wouldn't be surprised. Of course you are rolling your own and very quickly as you add features the level of complexity rises.

Another gent in here used a picaxe I think to do a simple controller.

I plan on using my FCIS MS to control ignition as well, don't try that with a 'duino.

I love the 'duino and have all sorts of them around my house, from devices to open hotel room door locks to a modification on my 10 year old coffee maker to control it with alexa, but I looked at this project and decided it wasn't reasonable.
Old 10-10-2017, 06:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #933 (permalink)
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How I wired my FCIS Power

After a couple of iterations of wiring my FCIS in my 86 930 I think I've found the optimum solution.

I had originally wired to the WUR power with a Y cable I made, however I found that the millisecond blip in the power as the key goes from "crank" to "run" caused resets and lost programming in the MS. Additionally WUR power is only on when the engine is running, ie the airflow plate is displaced and all other conditions met for fuel pumps to run. That means the MS is firing up during the start process and as part of MS start up takes its ambient air pressure sample from the intake manifold when there is vacuum there. This probably affects both starting and mixture for the duration of that run.

Then I wired to the delay relay for the CDI, which solved the above problems but I found that due to the warm up delay in the 14point7 Spartan controller I'm using it was no good for diagnosing startup problems, AFR was only useful 10-30 seconds after start.

So, where I've ended up.

I'm taking power from the lower unused position of the three fuses in the engine compartment. This is unswitched power, its always on regardless of the engine/ignition key state. I made an extra jumper and have a 15A fuse in that position.

I'm running that to a standard automotive relay and using a wire spliced into the power for the CDI to power the relay coil, grounding the other side to the ground location right by that panel. This turns on the relay coil and provides power when the ignition is in the run position, and further the delayed off feature of the CDI power prevents the reset issues I had originally and lets me get complete logging of engine shutdown as well. Power goes from the relay to a 6 position ATC style fuse block that I've mounted on the RHS manifold on an aluminum plate that also holds the MS and the MAP sensor. That fuse block provides separate fused power to the MS, injector, lambda valve, WBO2.

Now I can turn the key to on, wait a few seconds for the WBO2 to come alive, then crank and get full logging of the the startup sequence.

I have currently got the stock WUR plumbed in (MAP sensor is T'd into the vacuum line) and am not using the replacement eWUR. I have found the eWUR unnecessary.

I am also using a VW oil pressure fitting to be able to install the digital fuel pressure sensor into the control pressure line from the WUR.

So far working well.

Last edited by flightlead404; 10-11-2017 at 03:06 PM..
Old 10-10-2017, 07:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #934 (permalink)
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just ordered a pressure sensor and a thread taper - wanna learn, what's going on there right now. gonna make an adaptor of brass and a custom banjo bolt to fit it onto my current WUR.

do you know, what's the thread of that pressure damper? still can't understand, what are your findings: you've mentioned in the other thread that you've installed it on the FD side, plus the type of hoses also plays a role (either they are rigid and made of steel, or they are made of rubber, which also helps take pulses away). some other people report that it's not needed at all. however, just found some new items on ebay for ~$35 shipped, which seems okay.

there are still some more questions:
1. why does microsquirt need to know your RPM (in the simplest config, just to replace WUR?)
2. with the cost of microsquirt, why do you all guys still prefer to stay with CIS, instead of going full EFI? I am adored with the elegance of your solution, but I can't justify my decision of going this way. I just feel like doing that - although it sounds quite irrational %-)
3. how does this thing acts (or is expected to act) during cranking and close-throttle deceleration?
4. speaking about your metering unit - is it just the matter of geometrical overlaps/intersections of various openings, or there was a lot of try and error defining exact proportions/size of these intersections. I am about to launch my own cnc milling machine, and it seems that would be a nice test project, but it would be sort of a disappointment, if because of the wrong size or the wrong location of these overlaps it won't work as expected.
Old 10-15-2017, 05:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #935 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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#2: Iím going this route because I like the vintage looks and because CIS actually works quite well.


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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 10-15-2017, 05:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #936 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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#1 because it is adjusting the fuel delivery across the range of RPM and load
not just replacing the WUR for warmup, although it performs that function too

#2 a. because we can
#2 b. because as Kenikh mentioned there is nothing physically wrong with CIS
#2 c. because EFI conversions require more things to be changed or replaced = more work and expense for EFI
#2 d. because we can

#3 however you wish it to, within the limits of the version of CIS you have, you can tune for richer or leaner or normal for either condition

#4 no special considerations - just big enough for the expected flow and layout then tested in prototype form
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 10-15-2017, 09:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #937 (permalink)
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where do you pick up that RPM signal then? am I right that in the basic setup (plain WUR substitution) RPM and O2 signals are not actually needed? (and temerature could be calculated programmatically, like on some HVAC systems)
hey! at least now I have an answer for those who are wondering why don't i install a second-hand aftermarket efi)))
Old 10-16-2017, 03:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #938 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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for a plain basic WUR implementation I think you would be best to talk to Prebordao
see //forums.pelicanparts.com.../another-digital-wur
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 10-16-2017, 06:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #939 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puff View Post
where do you pick up that RPM signal then? am I right that in the basic setup (plain WUR substitution) RPM and O2 signals are not actually needed? (and temerature could be calculated programmatically, like on some HVAC systems)
hey! at least now I have an answer for those who are wondering why don't i install a second-hand aftermarket efi)))
Pick up the RPM input by splicing in to the Black/Violet signal line from the CDI to the tach and connecting that to VR1+, leave VR1- floating.

No, you are not correct. The MS uses a speed/density algorithm to calculate desired fuel along with a VE table. You need the WBO2 at minimum during the tuning stage to adjust the VE table so the calculated fuel and achieve the desired AFR at any given MAP and RPM.

The minimum installation is the microsquirt, a suitable MAP sensor, WBO2, and the lambda valve. In addition you will use the RPM signal as described above. The eWUR block and associated injector, pressure sensor, and fuel pressure damper are not needed if your stock WUR is correct and functional AND you have a functional lambda valve.

Last edited by flightlead404; 10-16-2017 at 04:51 PM..
Old 10-16-2017, 04:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #940 (permalink)
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