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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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konstanten Kraftstoffsteuerelektronik

ok now I'm just being silly as we already have www.FrankenCIS.com
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-23-2014 at 09:25 AM..
Old 08-23-2014, 09:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #81 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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"eCIS" is better.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 08-23-2014, 09:12 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #82 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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The data coming out of it today is giving me hope that 'eCIS' is probably the best description of what we are going to have access to. Especially with the wideband/autotune facility and WUR/FV combination.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-23-2014, 09:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #83 (permalink)
Brando
 
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Quote:
konstanten Kraftstoffsteuerelektronik



ok now I'm just being silly as we already have www.FrankenCIS.com
So what, Fcis?
Old 08-23-2014, 09:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #84 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Call it anything you like as long as the system works the way we hope
Actually to be fair to MegaSquirt it probably should be MegaCIS
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-23-2014 at 09:36 AM..
Old 08-23-2014, 09:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #85 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Subscribed! I'm interested in applying this to a 2.7L w/ CIS.

Funny thing - I ran across this thread while researching for a very similar idea that came up during this morning's local Cars & Coffee event. The initial thought was to build a pressure control regulator that mimicked the published output of a WUR based solely on temperature and MAP inputs. This is much better.

I'm in the Portland, OR area and a mechanical engineer. I'm connected with a few machine shops. Let me know how I can help the project.
Old 08-23-2014, 07:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #86 (permalink)
 
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Call it anything you like as long as the system works the way we hope
Actually to be fair to MegaSquirt it probably should be MegaCIS
Well, I want to use my Electromotive Tec3r, so it certainly isn't exclusive.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 08-23-2014, 08:16 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #87 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Well, I want to use my Electromotive Tec3r.
um .. how would that be possible?

our solution requires customised firmware in the Mega/MicroSquirt to change how it operates internally.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-23-2014, 08:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #88 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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I guess I just assumed you were using a generic output for a stepper or PWM...maybe I should read more.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 08-23-2014, 08:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #89 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Apologies to all, I have a nasty habit of assuming certain pieces of the puzzle are known or clear when outlining projects. Even frustrating my own team at times and they are used to me Two or three attempts from different directions usually does the trick. Essentially "What?, try again" - "Huh?, try again" - "Oh! now we get it"

To clarify the first couple of posts in this thread, I have created a new firmware or operating system based on the MS2extra code and MegaSquirt hardware which retains all the relevant EFI tuning, spark control and accessory features, but when switched into one of the K-Jet / CIS modes completely changes the way it interacts with the fuel side of the system.

K-Jetronic basic - controls an electronic WUR block similar to the UTCIS by targeting a control pressure map referencing Time/Temperature. The standard style EFI Load and RPM referenced fuel demand map is them mixed in on top to provide an enhanced version of the manifold pressure adjustment available in the standard mechanical WUR.

K-Jetronic Lambda - as above with the addition of a second map table controlling the Frequency Valve or equivalent. in this mode we also split the additional EFI style tuning features between the WUR and FV where appropriate.

KE-Jetronic - completely different to the first two, No WUR, No Frequency Valve, static control pressure and complete control of the differential pressure between the top and bottom chambers of the Fuel Distributor. This will be my end-point but requires development of the first two as a by product, thereby creating a solution for all versions of CIS and possibly a few hybrid options in between. Thus the FrankenCIS moniker.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-23-2014, 09:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #90 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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From the EFI side we retain and use
TPS - Throttle Position
CLT - Engine Temp
MAT - Manifold Air Temp
MAP - Manifold Air Pressure
o2 - Wideband AFR
RPM - engine speed

We add
CP - Control Pressure sensing
and the new WUR/Temp map

We consider
the air-plate/cone behaviour during calculations and tuning
the specific Fuel Distributor behaviour

We change injector control into two independent outputs
INJ1 - now isolated and no longer connected to RPM/INJ2 and used for the eWUR or positive side of the DPR
INJ2 - also disconnected from RPM/INJ1 and used for the Frequency Valve or negative side of the DPR

you still have the options of
Boost Control
Spark Control
Idle Control
Flex Fuel adaptation for E10-E85 methanol mixes
manual and self tuning through TunerStudio
Data logging through TunerStudio
Data logging over CAN to race loggers
etc....

So essentially the MS2 believes it is operating an EFI system and the new code accepts the control information and quietly translates that to the CIS way of doing things.

In the unlikely event the need for modern port injector based EFI arises, simply remove the CIS gear, add injectors and fuel rails, wire up the new injectors, switch the injection type in the main settings of the MS2 then retune and you now have EFI.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-23-2014 at 10:00 PM..
Old 08-23-2014, 09:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #91 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Data logs from cold Start and on the road drive

Confirmation that the mechanical WUR is time based for initial enrichment with ambient temp/engine temp deciding the start point and therefore duration of initial enrichment

at cold start with ambient of 25C, WUR based enrichment is essentially over after 120 seconds

Load/MAP based enrichment due to the vacuum being taken from (ported) above the throttle valve is confirmed WOT/Gross Accel enrichment at least in a NA environment. the lack of deceleration lean out is also obvious due to the design and port location

AFR is basically flat and control pressure variations seem to be more about the air plate / main plunger movement than any real input from the WUR.


same as before
top
- red = AFR target
- white = RPM
- yellow = AFR
lower section
- green = control pressure
- red = Manifold Pressure

initial start


on road
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-24-2014 at 02:10 AM..
Old 08-24-2014, 02:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #92 (permalink)
Forced Induction Junkie
 
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Steve,
Interesting data. In the most recent post, showing the data graphs, the right side of the (white) RPM data seems to show the engine "hunting" for stabilization. I take it that the engine is idling with no mechanical input (change in throttle plate input) from the driver. What data points is the ECU using for input in this scenario?

Thanks,
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 08-24-2014, 04:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #93 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Dave, I assume you mean this one?


at left - engine start and small throttle blip to make sure logging active
1/8 to 1/4 in - light throttle manoeuvring onto street from garage
1/2 to 3/4 in - another quick confirmation blip of the throttle and drive to corner (10 yards)
The messy but at the right is driving through a short series of left and right turns in a hilly area to get to the main portion of my test loop
running between 750 and 2500 rpm and probably 0-90% throttle input

ftp://reanimotion.com/test_log.zip if anyone wishes to analyse the data directly
MegaLogViewer Download for a viewer
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-24-2014 at 05:47 AM.. Reason: spelling boo-boo and throttle % wrong
Old 08-24-2014, 05:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #94 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Thinking about it further I might have to add a TPS sensor and a second MAP sensor on the ported vacuum line to get some comparative data over the primary Manifold Pressure.

This is a 928 Euro S variant so has vacuum enrichment in the WUR but appears to be mainly dormant until over 3/4 throttle which is interesting

Is the 930 ported or actual manifold pressure - because if ported then boost would be measured all the time over base atmospheric pressure but off boost sensing and enrichment if any, would still be throttle % dependant.

Not a problem either way but will require some adjustment to the tuning strategy for the WUR portion.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-24-2014 at 05:49 AM..
Old 08-24-2014, 05:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #95 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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corrected throttle % to 0-90 as after looking at the data again I was giving it a bit of wellie

the little blips on control pressure appear to be measuring plate overswing on the two throttle test blips at 1/8 and 5/8 of the log view - not MAP related
the main manifold pressure CP changes on the right hand side are 75%+ throttle i.e. WOT at 7/8 of the log and the rest of the wiggles can be attributed to FD/Plate/Arm changes
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-24-2014 at 05:53 AM..
Old 08-24-2014, 05:48 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #96 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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cold engine bad data
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 08-24-2014 at 06:53 AM..
Old 08-24-2014, 06:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #97 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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ok a better area on a warmer engine 5 minutes in
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 08-24-2014, 06:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #98 (permalink)
Mike of Dkubus Kustoms
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: South Australia
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FrankenCIS so cool, and awesome and all that....

Just wanted to put it out there that I'm super new to forum stuff but I think this looks like the way forward for CIS development.

awesome work.
Old 08-31-2014, 11:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #99 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
ok first run today with the prototype electronic WUR.

Way too much control pressure swing at current control levels
2-5% duty cycle change at the injector can swing up to 100kpa or 1 bar

need to bring it down to 1/10 or 1/100 control steps and retest as the flow through the standard WUR was a guess

Good bad results if that makes sense as I now have an idea of the happy range of the duty cycle i.e. approximately 60-85% for a 240cc injector

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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-06-2014, 07:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #100 (permalink)
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