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Thank You Steve,
Yes I feel a real loss of power.
Why in these points (where afr increases) the "DPR ma" value don't rise?
Old 09-23-2018, 10:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1061 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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it's hard to tell the actual numbers in the screen shot, but DPR mA may already be at max at that point so cannot go any higher.

There are multiple things that can affect any engine under load, especially a boosted one, ignition breakdown under boost could be a factor, or alternator/battery voltage fluctuations from a slipping belt causing the fuel pump or it's relay to drop out momentarily

It may even be an issue with the wideband controller, a loose ground that shifts under acceleration messing with the signal

have a good look at the logs from the MicroSquirt and see if you can find anything else that changes at the same time the AFR rises, also go hunting for loose wiring or things that can move about and mess with grounds and power supply to the electrics.

Some time on a dyno with an independent AFR measurement to confirm you readings is also a very good idea.

The KE3 fuel heads have an 8mm test port on the lower half you could plumb a pressure sensor into to verify if the control pressure and fuel supply is stable during the lean events.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-23-2018, 11:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1062 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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lower sensor on mine we used for development
metric-AN fittings and line to a remote mounted sensor


I now run two custom machined sensors that directly attach to the lower test port and upper cold start feed ports, along with a flex fuel sensor for quality and temp measurement



the green tape is to remind me to tighten it
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-23-2018, 11:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1063 (permalink)
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You could see on the second graph the white curve is dpr ma.( sorry but I can't get a best resolution)
Today I do some tuning increasing ve table values and tried different spark advance but same problem.

In correspondance of the vertical blu line dpr ma value is 18.
In the previous screenshot when afr goes up, dpr ma is 11.

I suppose that isn't a gasoline pressure problem because I shouldn't see dpr ma value increases as afr raises.

Why I can' t activate the afr table correction?

Last edited by Rital24; 09-24-2018 at 01:18 PM..
Old 09-24-2018, 11:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1064 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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If you would like to try and activate AFR targeting, it is done via the Fuel Settings menu and EGO Control

please note: the settings below are just what came up when I turned it on, they will need to be correctly set to valid values

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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-24-2018, 02:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1065 (permalink)
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I don't have the chance to select "incorporate afr target".
Old 09-24-2018, 11:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1066 (permalink)
 
umop apisdn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
I don't have the chance to select "incorporate afr target".
that's correct behaviour, the "incorporate afr target" is a different thing to "EGO control" and is disabled in our firmware

use "EGO Control" to get the system to self adjust based on wideband data, although please ensure the VE table tuning is as close as possible to correct before activating the feature
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-24-2018, 11:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1067 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
that's correct behaviour, the "incorporate afr target" is a different thing to "EGO control" and is disabled in our firmware

use "EGO Control" to get the system to self adjust based on wideband data, although please ensure the VE table tuning is as close as possible to correct before activating the feature
Thank You Steve, forgive my ignorance..
Could You please explain this concept better?
Ego Control and afr target should be interconnected?

Meanwhile a picture of engine arrangement:


Old 09-25-2018, 10:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1068 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Incorporate AFR Target is a calculated multiplier of the fuel delivery based on VE and fuel stoich ratio
basically the VE table is setup for a flat 14.7 response across load and RPM and then the system "incorporates" the required injector pulse width time change to achieve the AFR target for that RPM and Load. So you tune VE first and then once correct you do all your further tuning in the AFR tables.
it's not reactive to current AFR in any way, it simply goes if we need 3ms of injector time to get 14.7 for this cell, do 4.1ms to get 13.3

As we are not using normal millisecond timing for the injectors, and our usage of the VE tables is not related to actual Volumetric Efficiency, this rough calculation does not work with CIS so has been disabled.

EGO control, does a closed loop correction based on Current AFR and Required AFR in real time and will adjust DPR mA or frequency valve duty to achieve the required AFR in the AFR Table.

EGO control is primarily intended for steady state cruise and part throttle refinement, so I don't know if it can respond quickly enough to deal with your AFR issues in the higher gears
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-25-2018, 03:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1069 (permalink)
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Steve
It's really looking like a great product so far!!! Since the Lambda control on my 86 apparently bit the dust I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on the system.. I"ve ready through the whole thread a time or two and have some questions.

Micro Squirt vs MSII- eventually would like boost control, coil on plug spark control , I assume we need MSII for both of these?

Are there any advantages left for EFI with a fully implemented FCIS system? It seems to me that there are few left ?
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 09-27-2018, 12:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1070 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Hi Todd,

Yes, four and a bit years in and so far no complaints from those that have implemented the system! I thank the folks from MegaSquirt and MSExtra for creating such a flexible platform we could mess with.

The only issue we have seen is the eWUR injector does not like the extra fuel pressure used by the 930, and with the lambda valve the eWUR isn't needed anyway.

Both MicroSquirt and MS-II are compatible with FrankenCIS so you could use MSII if you like although spark and boost control are definitely available by using the MicroSquirt

From memory the MSII has a couple of extra outputs available to use
However the MicroSquirt V3 has a more advanced and flexible circuit for Crank and Cam sensor interaction and has 2 channels instead of the 1 in MSII
https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/megasquirt-systems-compared/


EFI definitely comes into play if there is a need for more fuel than the CIS system can currently supply, however from a tuning perspective below that max they are almost the same

Unfortunately I was never able to get FrankenCIS to work properly on the MS3 platform
maybe one day someone better than me can integrate it.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-27-2018, 03:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1071 (permalink)
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So basically with my 86 and my lambda control .. I don't get to buy anything from you ?? Darn I feel bad,, but if this works I"ll make it up to you by buying the FWUR for the 80 930!!
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon

Last edited by 9dreizig; 09-27-2018 at 03:48 PM..
Old 09-27-2018, 03:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1072 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Yep, no need to purchase anything from us If it makes you feel better, I don't make any money from these projects, all profit margins are at the dealer end to keep them interested in supporting their sales.

If you are happy with the 86, I'd recommend finding a lambda head for the 80 instead of using an eWUR on it.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-27-2018, 04:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1073 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Yep, no need to purchase anything from us If it makes you feel better, I don't make any money from these projects, all profit margins are at the dealer end to keep them interested in supporting their sales.

If you are happy with the 86, I'd recommend finding a lambda head for the 80 instead of using an eWUR on it.

Now I"m confused Why ?? Oh and the 80 will be bigger injectors , turbo and cams
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98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 09-27-2018, 04:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1074 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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mainly due to the lambda valve gives better range and response of fuel control than the WUR can.
Staying with non-lambda and eWUR is still an option of course and the tuning options would be equivalent to or better than vehicles running the Leask adjustable WUR.
There is just the concern that the eWUR may exhibit the stuck closed issues we have seen with 90+ psi system pressure on startup.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-27-2018, 05:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1075 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
mainly due to the lambda valve gives better range and response of fuel control than the WUR can.
Staying with non-lambda and eWUR is still an option of course and the tuning options would be equivalent to or better than vehicles running the Leask adjustable WUR.
There is just the concern that the eWUR may exhibit the stuck closed issues we have seen with 90+ psi system pressure on startup.
Are the Lambda heads just from 86 up 930's or were there other cars that used them? Don't want to be chasing a unicorn..
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"Todd"
98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 09-28-2018, 06:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1076 (permalink)
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Thank You Steve,
I found in my datalogging that ego contol stays always at 100% with those setup:






Somethimg wrong?
Old 09-28-2018, 03:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1077 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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check the active values are correct for your engine

does your coolant (engine temp) value get above 71.1C, if not, lower the active above to something smaller
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-28-2018, 03:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1078 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9dreizig View Post
Are the Lambda heads just from 86 up 930's or were there other cars that used them? Don't want to be chasing a unicorn..
Mercedes used Lambda, the one I have here is part# 0 438 100 088
it looks like eBay prices have increased since 2014 but used ones are still there now for a couple of hundred bucks
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-28-2018, 03:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1079 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Mercedes used Lambda, the one I have here is part# 0 438 100 088
it looks like eBay prices have increased since 2014 but used ones are still there now for a couple of hundred bucks
Steve looking at my two heads the AL is obviously the 86 but the second pic is my 79.. Could I just not add a Lamda FV ?? Am I missing something ?



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"Todd"
98 Tahoe ,2007 Saturn Vue
86 930 black and stock, 80 930 blue tracdog
91 Spec Miata (yeah I race a chick car)
"life"ll kill ya" Warren Zevon
Old 09-29-2018, 08:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1080 (permalink)
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