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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 530
Fuel pressure and fuel delivery from the pump to the fuel head are things you need to measure
-- if the fuel pump(s) is(are) not performing well then there may be less fuel available
-- if the pressure regulator is not behaving properly or out of adjustment then the additional fuel demand may be above what the system can regulate
-- the addition of boost may be only a small factor on a worn or out of adjustment system

you may already have this, the following Ferrari manual is the best I've found so far for detail on system setup
http://www.frankencis.com/portals/2/FrankenCIS/Bosch KE3-Jetronic 539-89 Injection System Manual 328 Mondial.pdf[/QUOTE]


the v8 and I6 cylinder fuel heads are direct bolt on to the air housing, but the fuel inlet and return positions are different (v8 has both inlet and return on the same side as the I6 return)
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-06-2019, 10:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1141 (permalink)
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So I’ve just read through all 58 pages of this almost 5 year old thread in preparation for attempting to start my 930 after my latest round of mods. I think this is ultimately going to be pushing the FrankenCIS envelope for me. When I last left it, I had a really nicely running ‘86 930 with a K27/29 turbo, RarlyL8 headers and Hooligan, and a Turbokraft long neck intercooler. Stock ignition and pretty much all the emissions removed. FrankenCIS was managing the frequency valve with the stock WUR in place.

I was slipping the clutch when hammering the throttle in 3rd.

Now I’ve put in the Sachs sport clutch with the lightweight adapter, SC cams, and had my flywheel lightened and cut for 60-2. I’ve removed the distributor and will be running Denso COPs in a wasted spark configuration, and also have an electronic boost controller.

I’ve got a dyno guy lined up. Plan is first to do some low power auto tunes, and make sure my starts, idles, and runs seem good and I don’t have any replay of the prior issues we ran into. Then we’ll dyno tune it without the EBC active. I’ll run that for a while, then go back and see just what I can get out of this configuration, can I get enough fuel and control the ignition well enough to up my boost safely to 1.2bar or higher without detonation.

Wish me luck....
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-07-2019, 03:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1142 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Be brave
light the blue touch paper etc...

and always remember, with everything fuel related set to "0" or "100" as appropriate, FrankenCIS is equivalent to your stock CIS system.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-07-2019, 03:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1143 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reanimotion View Post
Be brave
light the blue touch paper etc...

and always remember, with everything fuel related set to "0" or "100" as appropriate, FrankenCIS is equivalent to your stock CIS system.
Haha haha oh Steve, donít think youíre gonna get away with it that lightly! You know Iím going to be dragging you back into this soon
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-07-2019, 04:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1144 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Yep, no escape for me and only myself to blame for that
note to self: keep quiet next time I have a silly idea

On standby, as and when needed !!
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-07-2019, 05:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1145 (permalink)
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When setting my Microsquirt up for Wasted COP I’m getting the error message “Only two spark outputs allowed on Microsquirt”.

I’m sure Microsquirt can do 3 or even 4 outputs in a wasted spark configuration. It says right in the manual “The Microsquirt as standard provides two logic ignition channels. Optionally the WLED and ALED outputs can be re-purposed to give a total of four channels.”

Is there a setting somewhere in TunerStudio I’m missing?

The MS forums are useless as they bail out immediately they know its a non-standard firmware regardless of whether or not that functionality is changed. Jerks.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!

Last edited by flightlead404; 04-18-2019 at 03:42 PM..
Old 04-18-2019, 03:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1146 (permalink)
 
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 530
if you are playing in the msextra forums, simply don't mention frankencis
apart from the fuelling, everything works as per the standard firmware

from the manual
Quote:
The Microsquirt as standard provides two logic ignition channels IGNOUT1 (SPKA) and IGNOUT2 (SPKB). Optionally the WLED and ALED outputs can be re-purposed to give a total of four output channels.
the wiring for the extra channels is detailed in section 5.3 of the manual at http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Microsquirt_Hardware-3.4.pdf

settings should be Wasted Spark not Wasted COP

from here Megasquirt Support Forum (MSEXTRA) ‚ÄĘ MicroSquirt Ignition error (View topic)

Quote:
Wasted COP has been selected instead of Waste Spark. Wasted COP requires 6 spark outputs which microsquirt does not have.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-18-2019, 04:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1147 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 530
basically wasted COP assumes a single physical channel per coil and the ECU does the paired firing internally
I believe this was done so the user could switch between wasted and sequential without rewiring

Wasted spark uses half the physical channels of the cylinder count and requires the coils be paired together by the wiring in the harness
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-18-2019, 04:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1148 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
The MS forums are useless as they bail out immediately they know its a non-standard firmware regardless of whether or not that functionality is changed. Jerks.
it's a fair call on their part actually, The deal they made in the licencing for alternate firmware is the system must be supported by the author if published.
They have no idea what our changes may have impacted, and especially given there are few people in the community that both understand engines and can program well, the whole "not us call them" attitude is the safest stance for them to take.

We tried open-sourcing part of our software so our larger clients could modify it if they wished and it was a nightmare for our support guys for nearly a year before we closed the door and pulled it all back in-house.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) "Be the man your dog thinks you are."
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 04-18-2019, 04:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1149 (permalink)
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Nvm it needs to be wasted spark, not wasted COP. IDK what the difference is, but that’s what it needs. For some reason wasted COP needs an ignition circuit for each COP regardless if its wasted.

EDIT: oops I see Steve posted ahead of me. Thanks Steve
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-18-2019, 05:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1150 (permalink)
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I let some smoke out this evening, due to my mislabeling a wire. Not that big of a deal, more annoying, but I smoked my yellow relay. Just going to use a regular relay as I found out I originally had it swapped with the O2 positive power control relay so it obviously doesn’t make that much of a difference. However I’m going to take the time to use the MS Fuel Pump Relay circuit to turn on separate relays for ignition power and the WBO2 controller.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-18-2019, 05:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1151 (permalink)
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I've connected an analogical pressure gauge on the upper side of fuel distributor.
For the moment not possible to connect the pressure sensor because the TPS VREF 5v is used for another sensor.
Anyway I do some check and this is what I can see:
Fuel pressure stays on 6.4 bar from idle until low boost.
When at full open throttle the fuel pressure drops quickly to 6 bar, maybe 5.9, not more.
I suppose that it could be the limit of pumps instead of fuel distributor, probably the maximum capacity is reached.
My car uses the double pumps system.

What do you think about it?
Old 04-20-2019, 08:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1152 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
I've connected an analogical pressure gauge on the upper side of fuel distributor.
For the moment not possible to connect the pressure sensor because the TPS VREF 5v is used for another sensor.
Anyway I do some check and this is what I can see:
Fuel pressure stays on 6.4 bar from idle until low boost.
When at full open throttle the fuel pressure drops quickly to 6 bar, maybe 5.9, not more.
I suppose that it could be the limit of pumps instead of fuel distributor, probably the maximum capacity is reached.
My car uses the double pumps system.

What do you think about it?
You can use Vref for multiple sensors simultaneously.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-21-2019, 06:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1153 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightlead404 View Post
You can use Vref for multiple sensors simultaneously.
Thank You, this is a great information!
I have only now to machine the 1/8 thread to 8x10 metric on the pressure sensor and I could use it.

It seems that my car uses 2 x bosch 0 580 254 951 pumps in-line configuration.
I must check under the body...
Each pump should delivers circa 95l/h or 1 liter in 40 seconds at 400 chilopascal.
They are mounted in series, therefore the flow remain the same while the pressure doubles.

Question is: Is the flow enough?

I found this:

http://aa-bosch-ecat-ap.resource.bosch.com/sao_ecat/downloads/Bosch%20Fuel%20Pump_2009.pdf

It seems that at Bosch they have regrouped 72 different kind of pumps in only 7.

you are spoiled for choice....

Last edited by Rital24; 04-21-2019 at 03:40 PM..
Old 04-21-2019, 10:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1154 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
Thank You, this is a great information!
It's only 0.1A however. In the past I had this powering a pressure sensor and a 3bar MAP sensor. In my current installation its powering a pressure sensor, two 3 bar MAP sensors, and via a pullup resistor, a 3rd logic-level ignition output. I'm pretty sure this will work.

To ensure no spurious inputs I've got TPS+ tied to sensor ground.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 04-21-2019, 01:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1155 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
They are mounted in series, therefore the flow remain the same while the pressure doubles
Yeh - really not how it works..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rital24 View Post
Question is: are the flow enough?
I swapped out the original (single) 230K miles/40 year-old 911 pump for a 044 when I went hybrid K27/Kokelyn/GHLs. Just because. And because the original was noisy.

The 044 was just as noisy. Made no difference to pressure or AFRs. The 911 pump was in-spec for flow (at 930 system pressure), and the 044 was "better".
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Old 04-21-2019, 03:12 PM
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Update:

I modified my wiring a little during the install. Now taking the red/white feed off the delayed action relay to power everything except my wideband O2 controller. That's the MicroSquirt, both injectors, KnockSense, ignition power, and the electronic boost controller. I repurposed the lower of the 3 fuses in the engine bay fuse panel to provide power to the wideband O2.

Both ignition power and the wideband are turned on/off by relays grounded through the MS fuel pump circuit.

I'm as far as trying to start the car. Cranked it over tonight. Got sensible readings on everything, it kicked, but didn't start. Called it a night.
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 05-02-2019, 06:39 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1157 (permalink)
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If I need to, what's a good fixed ignition timing to start on?
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 05-02-2019, 06:43 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1158 (permalink)
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Been a while since I checked in. Good progress flightlead! I still need to find time to drive down and pay a visit.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:48 PM
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Been a while since I checked in. Good progress flightlead! I still need to find time to drive down and pay a visit.

Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
Anytime....

Went to look at my cranking logs in MLV HD. I can see the logs, but there's nothing in the composite logger. I am getting sensible rpm readings when cranking (~260rpm) so its being picked up?

why nothing in the composite tooth logger? how do I make that work?
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'86 no-sunroof 930 coupe: Emissions removed, FrankenCIS controlling eWUR, lambda, COP ignition, and EBC. SC cams, K-27/29, Tial 0.8bar, TK Longneck intercooler, RarlyL8 headers and dual-outlet hooligan
'14 Jaguar XK-R: Bullet proof windscreen, rotating number plates (valid all European countries), martini mixer, whatever you do don't press this red button!
Old 05-03-2019, 05:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1160 (permalink)
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