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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
I'm guessing the airplate movement translated thru the fuel head piston is causing a temporary shift in CP? If you hold the throttle open (partially) presumably it will stabilize back to the original CP.
Regards
Alan
Correct - if you go back to the earlier Standard WUR logs there is a rise and swing in control pressure as the air plate pushes the piston up in the fuel distributor.

At present the electronic control pressure targeting has been allowed to try and correct the spike as part of the testing which is why there is a diminishing ripple following the initial spike.
I did this purely to see
1. if the added damper masked the air plate and CP changes - it doesn't
2. if the correction circuit reacted quickly enough - it does

CP Change from steady state at 310 kpa
- on blips is 350 up and 250 down on the first swing so approx. +- 50kpa or 7psi (same as measured on the Bosch WUR)
- normal ripple when steady is +-2kpa which is within the same error as measured with the Bosch WUR
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 09-14-2014 at 03:39 AM..
Old 09-14-2014, 02:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #141 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
Jim, are you referring to this: Control Pressure Dampener from 930SE
Now this is funny....

Ignored it before as other had posted photos, but just read the thread linked in the above post and notice the part number for the 930 is actually a 928 part 928 110 231 02

googled it and found installation parts diaphragm damper fuel distributor with encapsulated valve see technical information. Fits: Porsche | Jim Ellis Porsche Parts

Looks like the 928 somewhere had this as part of the system. Not mine ('81 ROW), so maybe a later euro model as the US ones went to L-Jet in '80.

Methinks I'm calling the dealership parts guy tomorrow to get the set of bits

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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 02-25-2015 at 08:04 AM..
Old 09-14-2014, 04:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #142 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 441
Ok I was going to edit the previous post to save face but..

This is even funnier.......

Guess what I just found hiding under my intake manifold I could say some naughty words... but I won't!

Aw crap! Ok we now have another test to run
c. the V1 metering block but the pressure sensor moved to the point between the Fuel distributor and the newly discovered FACTORY Damper . mine has a blocking solenoid and additional lines and fittings between items 2 & 1 in the diagram above so I'll attach the pressure sensor at the FD side of those fittings

In my defence it's not in the system diagram, it's plumbed into the control pressure holding solenoid which I was led to believe was on the tank return circuit and it's pretty well hidden in the valley under the vacuum hoses under the manifold spider.

So good news for all except stupid stupid me for not physically verifying the Euro S system against the scanned manual system diagram from the US models.
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 09-14-2014 at 05:26 AM.. Reason: added where sensor will go
Old 09-14-2014, 04:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #143 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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this should clear it up ????

The manuals have a single pipe following the path of #10/#8 without #1

Mine actually uses #10 -> #1 -> #20 -> #15 -> #14

which differs from both the manual and the Jim Ellis Porsche link above which would be #21 -> #15 -> #14
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 09-14-2014 at 05:43 AM..
Old 09-14-2014, 05:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #144 (permalink)
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Alan L's Avatar
 
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You are forgiven for not finding an obscure part in a rats nest of plumbing.
The pic of the part I sent you was actually plumbed into my 930 as when I received it, and exactly as per the 930S diagram. But it took the guys a while to figure what it was and they came up with 'a fuel enrichment device from a Mercedes' (it is found on the merc as well). My car had a host of fuel issues so I removed it to simplify things.
If only I could get my digiWUR back from UT, I may have something workable.
Good luck. You seem to be making better progress than UT did after several years at it.
From memory my CP would spike by a few psi on throttle blip too (with standard WUR), but settled straight away - so your subsequent diminishing spikes would be control system induced. But is looking seriously good.
Regards
Alan
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83 SC, 82 930 (track) - Stock except for RarlyL8 race headers, RarlyL8 Zork, K27-7006, 22/28 T bars, 007 Fuel head, short 3&4 gears, NGK AFR, Greddy EBC (on the slippery slope), Wevo engine mounts, ERP rear camber adjust and mono balls, Tarret front monoball camber adjust, Elgin cams, 38mm ported heads, 964 IC. 380rwhp @ 0.8bar Apart from above, bone stock:-)
Old 09-14-2014, 12:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #145 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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HI Guys,

Just letting you know I've been diverted by the super secret work temporarily - hopefully some news on the sensor relocation tomorrow.
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-21-2014, 03:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #146 (permalink)
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1985 redslope 930, 8:39 RP, S cams, B&B dual out muffler, IA Fuel Dist. Sitting on shelf awaiting installation: IA HF turbo, GSF headers(no heat), 46mm wastegate.

1971 911T Targa. needs alot of work(understatement).
Old 09-21-2014, 03:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #147 (permalink)
Just add lightness...
 
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Just discovered this thread...
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #148 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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ok Gentlemen we have good control and +/- 10kpa flutter at the sensor that's .1bar or 1.4psi




This is with the factory damper in place and our sensor in line but away from the wur

so now the plumbing is

Fuel Dist -> short hard line -> Damper -> short hard line -> Sensor -> long hard line -> FrankenCIS thingy

the exact same setup initially with the sensor as the inlet to frankencis was +/- 100kpa

I suspect (and will test later on) that we may not need a damper as long as the sensor is at the FD end.



Sooooo....

Looks like we have a winner
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #149 (permalink)
Just add lightness...
 
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Steve, do you plan on selling it like a kit ?
If so, any idea on pricing ?
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:40 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #150 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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We will be doing an installer kit for tuners but it won't be based on the MicroSquirt.

It now looks like we will also be selling the custom parts needed to do the MegaSquirt/Microsquirt version discussed here. No firm pricing yet but guessing less than US$99 for the alloy metering block.

If you shop around for the other bits then it should be under a grand easy for the whole thing
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:52 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #151 (permalink)
Just add lightness...
 
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Great, My idea is to buy the block only, if possible.
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #152 (permalink)
 
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umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I've had another look at the specs of the sensor and the accuracy is listed as

Accuracy: +/-1%FS

As its a 100psi sensor that means +-1psi and our +-10kpa is right on the edge of that, so I suspect we have a clean pressure level at the fuel distributor, and the flutter is just the sensor itself.

I'm pleased, mainly because I can drive the beastie again
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 03:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #153 (permalink)
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Have you dialled in already, the warm-up curve from a cold start ? Does it behaves acceptably starting form cold ?
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pjr
74' Lime Green 911S Targa
nineelevenophilia.wordpress.com
Old 09-22-2014, 04:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #154 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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All we have done so far is set the warm up curve to the factory specs and matched the measured response time of the actual Bosch WUR
plus added a coolant temp enrichment curve, so its actually running a more complex setup than the factory unit

From earlier tests we found The Bosch WUR change from cold to warm settings took 2 minutes with the electric heated bi-metal strip active

the graph below is from the car this evening ( in garage, raining, about 20c , not started for a week before test) from cold.

Warm up curve smooth and took 90 seconds
AFR starts at a low of 12.0 and then up to our current mid-warm idle setting of 13.5
pretty good idle throughout and for factory set pressure and still a cold engine so a bit richer than later after a drive

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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 04:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #155 (permalink)
Mike of Dkubus Kustoms
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: South Australia
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All looks awesome so far!

Good work, our "Dkubus" Mercedes M117 Supercharged set up should be ready for testing within the month at this stage.

cant wait to see what power level the CIS system can cope with once all tweaked up

Mike.
Old 09-22-2014, 04:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #156 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Thanks Mike,
Check your email.

(Mike has one of our prototypes and will be doing the boosted engine testing with us)
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Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 04:24 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #157 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prebordao View Post
Great, My idea is to buy the block only, if possible.
If you post a photo on your blog, I'll send you one of the prototypes
PM me
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com
Old 09-22-2014, 04:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #158 (permalink)
Mike of Dkubus Kustoms
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: South Australia
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its also going to be real interesting to see how the FrankenCIS smooths out the idle of the 276 degree cams (factory CIS and WUR hates it lol)

Mike.
Old 09-22-2014, 04:31 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #159 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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The bottom of Post #1 now contains the following list for those interested
I will keep it updated as we go, So Always Refer to POST#1 for the current status

Refer Post#1 for current reference Install Parts List

MicroSquirt (tm) MicroSquirt Engine Management System DIYAutoTune.com

FrankenCIS (tm) Metering Block
Injector - Delphi FJ10409 Fuel Injector (Single) For Dodge Chrysler Eagle 1993-1997
CP sensor - from Ahead Instruments (eBay store 100psi items - Ahead Instruments)

MAP sensor - Denso 1bar
IAT sensor - BOSCH 0280130085, PORSCHE 99360611400 SEAT, SKODA, VW 058905379, FAE 33226
Engine Temp sensor - Bosch 996 unit
WBo2 - Innovate LC2
(to suit a particular application the four sensors above can be substituted with anything compatible with MegaSquirt)
__________________
Steve
1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic and Franken8 (AEM Inifinty) follow at [http://www.frankencis.com/Activity-Feed/userid/2]
Yes! mechanical/hydraulic constant flow injection can be managed by a modern EMS

www.FrankenCIS.com

Last edited by Reanimotion; 09-22-2014 at 08:19 PM..
Old 09-22-2014, 06:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #160 (permalink)
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