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You've been given good advice with this exception,
"40k is great 90k is not too much " (sorry Robby)
The rust would be my biggest concern. The fact that you can see it coming through the paint in several places is a sure guarantee that there's lots more lurking where you cant see it. As you probably know already, if it's not properly addressed it will continue to eat away. As others have pointed out rust repair is not a cheap or quick endeavor.
I think you'd be better off spending more for a rust free example but with prices what they are this may not be an option for you. On a more positive note the car has allot going for it. It's a great color and looks to be very original.
I think you'd be buying very well at $30,000. If you cant get it for less than $35,000
I'd pass.
Good luck. I hope you get it, there's nothing like a 930

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81 Pacific Blue 930 Euro coupe slicktop on a strict diet, Rarlyl8 headers, Blowzilla turbo, Tial waste gate, Full bay I/C, Home made center out exhaust, Leask WUR, MSD 6AL, PLX wideband
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:30 AM
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beancounter
 
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How was the test drive?

I'm not going to give you any advice re: pricing other than spend a few hours browsing the "Notable recent Sales" thread and you'll have more than your fill of data. Based on the few photos you shared, the car looks decent. I'd agree that you should be prepared to spend a lot of money sorting out "little" things.

When I bought my car back in '07, people on Rennlist (hadn't yet discovered Pelican) gave me the same advice - to have 15k at the ready, minimum. I didn't believe it, but I have spent multiples of that sorting, and improving (IMO) the car.

I'm not as freaked out by the 2 rust pictures as some of the folks on here seem to be, having spent my entire life living in the rust belt. Of course rust is never good, but that car doesn't look like it was driven on salted winter roads. Limited views in your photos, but thinks like the lower shock bolts into the trailing arms and the rear sway bar drop link bolts would be rusty as hell if that car spent any time on salty roads.

My '79 which spent its entire life prior to my purchase in the sunny southeast (primarily Atlanta area) had a rust spot in a similar spot on the b-pillar. It was not rusting through from the inside of the fender well. Rain or car wash water seems to get trapped there, and under the quarter window. After 30 years, it can take a toll. I removed the quarter window, the underlying aluminium trim and found this:

the worst of it was under the aluminum trim, completely out of sight. Nothing on the underside of the fender, because that area can dry out properly.

Took everything down to bare metal, used rust converter, then primed, painted, clear coated it. Reinstalled the aluminum trim with "Dum Dum" (3m strip caulk), and finally resinstalled the window with new rubber.




Because I was concerned the same thing happened on the other side I pulled the window (needed new rubber anyway). As you can see, its fine.


Just a reference point for people to see that rust does not necessary indicate that a car was driven on salty roads. There are nooks and crannies on these cars that will trap rain and wash water and after decades it can lead to rust.
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:40 AM
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It's a Canadian car. Do they salt the roads there in the winter? Some salt will still be on the asphalt road surface in the spring for a little while after the last snow melts if they do.
He says it's the original owner so he can chat with the owner in a fun way about how these cars run so strong in the cold winter air and draw a conclusion from the owners response as to if it was driven during the winter.. and then ask if it was.

I lived in the finger lakes region of upstate NY for my first 26 years and I remember what it was like. A lot of people had a rust bucket old american "winter rat" car to drive during the winter because they salted the roads during winter there and it would rust a car out from the underside quickly.
Old 10-05-2014, 11:50 AM
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Hey you guys, I really really do appreciate the consensus on all of this. Your experience and opinions provide a lot of value.

What I'm hearing is, the car is really worth $35K, $30K is what I should pay, and $40K is nothing stupid. Remember, I'm in Canada, where everything costs more. We never had $25K 930s up here.

I just got off the phone with the fellow (man he really loved this car) and he found the bill from 2003 @200,000kms (has 205K today) when the new clutch was put in, the valves were adjusted and "repair oil leak". It is possible that this oil is from before then and the engine was never cleaned thereafter. The entire drivetrain came out for the clutch job. I also found out he changed his oil himself 3 times in the last 11 years which could explain why that side of the engine is so soaked. I did note under the oil filter that he has not really cleaned up after the oil changes, there was a lot of oil on the frame. Also the car had a "compression test completed" 120PSI on all 6 after the valve adjustment. hmmmm. I might just take my compression tester with me and verify this.

Since this time the car was driven on occasion until 2008, thereafter it has been started and driven around the cul-de-sac until now.

If you heard this engine cold start and idle, it just sounds so incredibly fantastic and smooth. You can't ever hear the valvetrain, which most old 911s you can hear some ticking (even on my 250,000km SC).

It's just the more I talk to this guy, the better I feel about the car. If he really drove it to and from Langley, BC daily for a a couple of decades, which is actually 55.5km each way (I was wrong) 95% freeway, the car just won't have the wear of a 40,000 mile urban garage queen.

I don't want to come off as an arrogant arshehole, but when I bought my SC everyone told me the 911 was a $20K car. 4 years later it's not even been a $12K car, the car is better than I got it. When something needs attention, I park the car and take my time and common sense to fix it. Like the alternator, the dash light was glowing, I took out the alternator, repaired my cracked fan shroud (surprise) myself , found a guy who could heat press the diodes for the rebuild, $100 and Bob's your uncle. I upgraded the VR to a modern solid state unit for good measure too, $16.

I'm def DIY oriented, I use the internet, I can pull a motor, and I have decent tools I acquired slowly over the last 10 years.

Which brings me to, how really , and I do believe you guys, does $15K evaporate? TO be fair, during my stewardship, my SC has never been to a mechanic, valve adjustments, brakes, a couple electrical things and so on I have been able to figure out. I'm sure if I dropped the SC off twice a year we could be at $5-7K in running costs. I once disassembled the entire nose, prepped and had my bumper and valence professionally resprayed, found a good used bumper smile, polished the turn signal lenses, put it all back together, looks new for $300 all in.

I'm thrifty.
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Last edited by woywitka; 10-05-2014 at 01:19 PM..
Old 10-05-2014, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
How was the test drive?



Just a reference point for people to see that rust does not necessary indicate that a car was driven on salty roads. There are nooks and crannies on these cars that will trap rain and wash water and after decades it can lead to rust.
Test drive is Tuesday. We are going for a 250km trip to Whistler and back.

This is exactly the kind of rust this car has. Stone chips and trapped water from a car wash. The battery tray, torsion bar mounts, bolts under the car all look California car good.

The owner told me that during the first decade he drove his BMW instead whenever there was rain. Forget the salt.

Now there was a brief period of time where he drove it year round because he just wanted to have fun, but we don't really salt much up here. Some years we get less snow than Seattle and Portland. I would say we get salt 10-15 days a year and it's very light. We also get a LOT of warm rain year round to wash it away. White salty roads are brief if they even occur.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:08 PM
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This is my plan:

Because all the spots of rust are somewhat hidden, I'm thinking to sand and treat with miracle paint, spray with base and clear myself. Take off the rockers and clean up the back side, coat with miracle paint, cover with stone chip, fix any of the outer layers with careful touchup as to preserve as much of the original paint as possible. Polish up and protect the patina.

If the B pillar is rusted through, I will have it welded at a shop I have a connection with that does classic car restoration. Coat with miracle paint. Luckily I should be able to save the outer visible bodywork on that side.

Clean up the engine, do a full tune up, plugs, filters, oil cap and rotor. Drive for a bit, check for leaks, if there are no leaks I'm sure as hell not going to tear down that engine.

The car has 4 near new tires with less than 5,000kms on them, new brakes all around, the rotors were turned by him (he's a retired tool and dye maker) and spent 15min telling me how to properly turn rotors to 5billionths of a cm with a special this and that. (very impressed). The car has a new clutch. The car starts runs and drives. I mean, really guys, what else is there? Bad turbo? Rebuild it. Suspension bushings shot? Replace them. Engine explodes? ok. yeah, that's bad.
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1978 911 SC Targa
1975 914 1.8
1980 Mercedes 300 SD

Last edited by woywitka; 10-05-2014 at 01:23 PM..
Old 10-05-2014, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
That "small" rust hole under the B piller is at least 5 times bigger where you can't see it.
Those rust locations are usually caused by crap like salty dirt, slush, and snow thrown up by the left rear tire on the other side in the fender well. The door jam scratch may be from somebody slamming the door shut on the seat belt buckle.
The motor is a mess and needs a lot of work at that mileage and it has oil all over it. At least that reduces the amount of aluminum corrosion...
I know auto restoration well. I used to do it for a living on old Porsches.
At least the entire 911 chassis is dipped and galvanized after '76.

With the amount and high cost of work that car needs at that mileage it isn't worth more than 25 grand. It will need at least that much more into it and the process can be a long and expensive nightmare.
You have gotten other opinions from people that know absolutely nothing about the work it needs or how to properly do it.
Why is the motor a mess?
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:47 PM
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You sound like you have already convinced yourself to purchase it.
Good luck but br very careful with the rust, there is definitely more than
Meets the eye on a Canadian driven car especially on the coast of Vancouver
Old 10-05-2014, 03:12 PM
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Hey Woywitka, sounds like you are doing your due diligence, and that you are leaning toward acquiring the car. Balance the great advice you are receiving with your personal observations when you drive the car. Keep touching those rose coloured glasses so you are aware they are on when you write the cheque. These cars become obsessive once you decide it's your right to own one.

I have an '82 Canadian 930 with 168K Km's that doesn't leak, smoke , burn or drip oil and the compression and leak down numbers are strong. Engine was out for a reseal at 145k Kms but no work yet. Oil changes and basic maintenance are frequent. I have read others on this board with high mileage 930's that haven't been opened up yet, although the sentiment is that high mileage 930's = reason for discount. Not always the rule but logical. You see a lot of low mileage cars with rebuilt motors. I figure I'm on borrowed time.

I am able to maintain my car without bleeding out at the stealer ship thanks to the good advice the experts on this forum offer. Accept the input at face value, examine and drive it and make your decision on what it's worth to you - plan for surprises, and not just the happy ones.

Good luck with your decision. These are exciting cars.

Last edited by DaytonaCoupe66; 10-05-2014 at 03:28 PM..
Old 10-05-2014, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woywitka View Post
Why is the motor a mess?
Because it's leaking oil from multiple places and then collecting dirt.
I guess I could have said the motor is messy if that sounds nicer...

Whoever buys it can clean all that off with a couple spray cans of Gunk engine cleaner followed with some brushing while it soaks in and then pressure clean it off. A good powerful garden hose works OK too.
That stuff works best sprayed on a warm motor.
Old 10-06-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
Because it's leaking oil from multiple places and then collecting dirt.
I guess I could have said the motor is messy if that sounds nicer...

Whoever buys it can clean all that off with a couple spray cans of Gunk engine cleaner followed with some brushing while it soaks in and then pressure clean it off. A good powerful garden hose works OK too.
That stuff works best sprayed on a warm motor.
haha thank-you! When you said a mess, I thought you meant something to the effect of sorting it out is an obvious a nightmare.

In my time driving a 911, I have really been impressed with not only how reliable the car is, but how durable it is too. I mean, can't you just drive a car, change the oil, and when the engine blows too much smoke, or consumes a quart every 150km, then you look at rebuilding it? I wonder how many Porsche engines have been rebuilt that were actually fine. It's funny, I meet people who spend literally a house in terms of money keeping up their car, and then I meet people like the owner of this 930 who only ever changed the clutch, brakes, and tires. It's universally the low mileage garage queens that consume $100 bills like smarties.

But then again, could be my bias towards talking myself into buying a supercar with 200,000km.

Test drive is tomorrow. And I found out the owner is ok to have a PPI done, but really what's the point? I had a PPI done on my SC and I think the best thing I could do is convince the owner to let me do my own compression test, pop the valve covers and check the head studs, and do a really good poke around. I think he would be more comfortable if I did the work anyways to be honest.

A very reputable local shop wants like $650 for the PPI which will include a leakdown and headstud inspection (not part of standard PPI).
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1980 Mercedes 300 SD
Old 10-06-2014, 10:55 AM
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These one owners can be hard to deal with especially as it looks and drives nice. I'd say if you get it for under $50K I'd be surprised. There is usually blue sky to pay for when buying from the original owner. They generally remember the car as being like when it was new. Good luck, it looks like a nice one with a good story and being a DIY guy you can be a little more flexible than a guy( like me ) that takes most repairs to the Porsche repair shop.
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Last edited by voitureltd; 10-06-2014 at 11:07 AM..
Old 10-06-2014, 11:03 AM
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beancounter
 
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Leakdown test is the best way to determine the health of the engine.

Porsches run really well with broken rings and deformed pistons:

My 930


A friend's 930


This kind of stuff is how 15k "evaporates" - it happens very easily on a turbocharged engine. Not so easily on your NA 911.
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
Leakdown test is the best way to determine the health of the engine.

Porsches run really well with broken rings and deformed pistons:

My 930


A friend's 930


This kind of stuff is how 15k "evaporates" - it happens very easily on a turbocharged engine. Not so easily on your NA 911.
You just gave me nightmares.

Maybe I will only have a leakdown done.

Those pieces of rings...sends chills down my spine

You had zero symptoms, surely oil was getting by and consuming, no?
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Last edited by woywitka; 10-06-2014 at 11:45 AM..
Old 10-06-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woywitka View Post
You had zero symptoms, surely oil was getting by and consuming, no?
On my car, oil consumption was well within factory limits. No smoking, car ran strong. Like I said, Porsches run great with broken rings and deformed pistons.

I did a compression test on my engine and the offending cylinder was down vs. the others, but still had a very good #. It was within 10% of the others too, which is just at the borderline of where common wisdom says to be concerned. Leakdown for this cylinder was 40%. Others were <10% (even though rings were shattered on 2 other cylinders as well).

The "symptom" both of the cars displayed was that they didn't perform as well as expected given the modifications each had. My car was dead-even in an impromptu stop-light drag race with a virtually stock '87 930. This was after I had spent a bunch of money on new exhaust, and an upgraded turbo. I should have been able to pull away from a stocker, but I couldn't.
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Old 10-06-2014, 11:56 AM
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Turbocharged engines run well with bad rings and such because the turbo boost will makes up for the cylinder leakage of the bad cylinder, on a NA engine there will be a miss and power loss.
Old 10-06-2014, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
That "small" rust hole under the B piller is at least 5 times bigger where you can't see it.
Those rust locations are usually caused by crap like salty dirt, slush, and snow thrown up by the left rear tire on the other side in the fender well. The door jam scratch may be from somebody slamming the door shut on the seat belt buckle.
The motor is a mess and needs a lot of work at that mileage and it has oil all over it. At least that reduces the amount of aluminum corrosion...
I know auto restoration well. I used to do it for a living on old Porsches.
At least the entire 911 chassis is dipped and galvanized after '76.

With the amount and high cost of work that car needs at that mileage it isn't worth more than 25 grand. It will need at least that much more into it and the process can be a long and expensive nightmare.
You have gotten other opinions from people that know absolutely nothing about the work it needs or how to properly do it.

Sounds a bit silly doing something for so long that you found difficult and hated doing

I bought mine at 230000kays, took me a whole week to clean the undercarriage
Cost to restore mine so far is about 2 grand and most of that is for the roof and windows I had to buy cos im converting it back to a hardtop, I bought a mig welder too.. all in all pretty easy, watch Youtube to learn how to paint and ask a few questions here.. ts easy as pie, these cars are NOT complicated, im no mechanic or painter, or panel beater or electrician, etc etc..

If you look at it logically all it is is about a ton and a half of metal paint plastic and glass, Your not rebuilding a space shuttle, unless you want to show her?

Start an area ask a question here and the combined knowledge of half of these guys will tell you how to do it..

The only thing you need to know to restore a 930 is to Read and know how to get to the youtube page (that bit was the hardest I had to pinch laptop off kids)

This is about ten hours work
cost=$20 for the header ceramic paint and red enamel, the tubing was free cos I pulled it off a vacuum cleaner, why use it? because im about preservation not pretty.
Im silicone tubing all lines and wiring also, preserving original wiring, pros will say its dum don't do it,

here im up to $80 bucks, whats wrong with it??





If you have rust, then cut it out learn how to weld and fix her she deserves it..
better fix her than let her rust away to nothing, then there will be one less 930 in the world and that makes me sad, And youll be surprised under all that grime she will be pretty , my headers have been on the car for 38 years, theyre date stamped may 77. looked like yours..
Elbow grease does wonders.

If engine bad inside so what?
fix it, go on you tube theres a guy there who has done a step by step dismantle and recondition of a 930 engine its in 6 parts.

Buy it, respect it and when you have her to former glory you wont stop smiling,
it isn't about the money and cost and being too hard... its about how much passion you have for her.

If you dont do it I guarantee someone else will

All I see is a thing of beauty,
If you love 930's GO FOR IT!

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Old 10-06-2014, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
Sounds a bit silly doing something for so long that you found difficult and hated doing

I bought mine at 230000kays, took me a whole week to clean the undercarriage
Cost to restore mine so far is about 2 grand and most of that is for the roof and windows I had to buy cos im converting it back to a hardtop, I bought a mig welder too.. all in all pretty easy, watch Youtube to learn how to paint and ask a few questions here.. ts easy as pie, these cars are NOT complicated, im no mechanic or painter, or panel beater or electrician, etc etc..

If you look at it logically all it is is about a ton and a half of metal paint plastic and glass, Your not rebuilding a space shuttle, unless you want to show her?

Start an area ask a question here and the combined knowledge of half of these guys will tell you how to do it..

The only thing you need to know to restore a 930 is to Read and know how to get to the youtube page (that bit was the hardest I had to pinch laptop off kids)

This is about ten hours work
cost=$20 for the header ceramic paint and red enamel, the tubing was free cos I pulled it off a vacuum cleaner, why use it? because im about preservation not pretty.
Im silicone tubing all lines and wiring also, preserving original wiring, pros will say its dum don't do it,

here im up to $80 bucks, whats wrong with it??





If you have rust, then cut it out learn how to weld and fix her she deserves it..
better fix her than let her rust away to nothing, then there will be one less 930 in the world and that makes me sad, And youll be surprised under all that grime she will be pretty , my headers have been on the car for 38 years, theyre date stamped may 77. looked like yours..
Elbow grease does wonders.

If engine bad inside so what?
fix it, go on you tube theres a guy there who has done a step by step dismantle and recondition of a 930 engine its in 6 parts.

Buy it, respect it and when you have her to former glory you wont stop smiling,
it isn't about the money and cost and being too hard... its about how much passion you have for her.

If you dont do it I guarantee someone else will

All I see is a thing of beauty,
If you love 930's GO FOR IT!

You and I would get along very well. Love the work you are doing, getting your hands dirty and using the internet.

Your engine has 230,000kms, has it been rebuilt?
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1978 911 SC Targa
1975 914 1.8
1980 Mercedes 300 SD
Old 10-06-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woywitka View Post

Test drive is tomorrow. And I found out the owner is ok to have a PPI done, but really what's the point?
I think the best thing I could do is convince the owner to let me do my own compression test, pop the valve covers and check the head studs, and do a really good poke around. I think he would be more comfortable if I did the work anyways to be honest.

A very reputable local shop wants like $650 for the PPI which will include a leakdown and headstud inspection (not part of standard PPI).
Uh, yeah.. unlike your SC, the Turbo has a lot more stuff in the engine bay that will need to be removed to do your PPI including a compression test, and basic oil change since you're popping the lower valve covers to check head studs. I'm sure the owner will develop some heartburn when you start disassembling his car in the garage.. and its not that much of a cake-walk if you've not done it before on these cars.

$650 is a decent price for the shop PPI especially since it will include the leak down.. something that will be difficult for you to due in the owners garage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
On my car, oil consumption was well within factory limits. No smoking, car ran strong. Like I said, Porsches run great with broken rings and deformed pistons.

The "symptom" both of the cars displayed was that they didn't perform as well as expected given the modifications each had.
That's because these engines are very robust. And although one has suffered damage, as long as its in that state of being (having not been pulled apart) they often will still run just fine and exhibit no issue except possibly being down on power.

Although I have seen some that will just consume oil and smoke like a freight train we find that these problems are usually wear in the valve train.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbbyg View Post
I bought mine at 230000kays, took me a whole week to clean the undercarriage
Cost to restore mine so far is about 2 grand and most of that is for the roof and windows I had to buy cos im converting it back to a hardtop, I bought a mig welder too.. all in all pretty easy, watch Youtube to learn how to paint and ask a few questions here.. ts easy as pie, these cars are NOT complicated, im no mechanic or painter, or panel beater or electrician, etc etc..

If you look at it logically all it is is about a ton and a half of metal paint plastic and glass, Your not rebuilding a space shuttle, unless you want to show her?

The only thing you need to know to restore a 930 is to Read and know how to get to the youtube page

If engine bad inside so what?
fix it, go on you tube theres a guy there who has done a step by step dismantle and recondition of a 930 engine its in 6 parts.
In a word..

SCARY!!
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So many cars.. so little time!!
Old 10-07-2014, 07:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
My car was dead-even in an impromptu stop-light drag race with a virtually stock '87 930. This was after I had spent a bunch of money on new exhaust, and an upgraded turbo. I should have been able to pull away from a stocker, but I couldn't.
Never (ever) underestimate the sheer awesomenessitudeification of mah driving PROWESS!

don't forget, your car was puffpuffpuffin out the oil filler @ idle - that was a pretty dead giveaway there

to the OP, I'm in the more conservative camp here - the rust doesn't terrify me, nor do the miles or the story

my biggest fear @ those miles is the gearbox, will almost certainly need attention soon - mine's graunchy @ 60k, and it's already had 3rd gear work @ 35k

I bet the leaks aren't nearly as bad as they look - most can be easily remedied esp if you're DIY friendly which you seem... oil return tubes, oil lines, timing chain covers, breathers, valve covers, the normal suspects. Unless you see it spewing out the case seam I'd not fret terribly - yet .


Definitely do the leak down then start low... say $27k, citing alllllllllllllll the "work" the car "needs". Me, I'd feel good about going $45k, prob no more than high $40k's (USD). Mostly as it's a 1 owner, amazing color combo, sport seats, great condition, and a car that was DRIVEN.

Amen on your sentiments about garage queens and smarties... I've long said I think many well heeled folks simply like spending $$$, and doing so helps them feel good about themselves and the car. Work that is definitely not always necessary.

Good luck, hope it works out for you - keep us posted...

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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 10-07-2014, 08:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
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