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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rockwall, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dos531 View Post
By that logic, if you wanted a car with more than 300hp you should have bought one that came out of the box with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett View Post
Exactly!!!
Miguel, I'm not sure if that "exactly" was meant has humor or sarcasm, but if not, doesn't that go against the spirit of these cars? To me, these machines, all high performance machines, really, are meant to poked, prodded and squeezed (aka: to modify them, including for the purpose of greater horsepower, is a primary reason for owning one).

Now in that vein, I know that you have some really nice mods on your car - thinking about the boss, wide Fuchs wheels and the very unique oil cooler in the modified OEM front valance (really love both, BTW).


Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 10-14-2014 at 11:39 AM..
Old 10-14-2014, 11:03 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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^^^ that's exactly what I mean... and on and on and on... and sometimes it works, and sometimes it works great...
Bah humbug!
Old 10-14-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Good question, Tippy.

I'm curious to know, too.
Chris, you should tour cars and coffees and let Pelicanites take a test drive.

Might be some open checkbooks.
Old 10-14-2014, 11:06 AM
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beancounter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
It's a Carrera 3.2, so I had those components.
^ a 3.2 is EFI to start out with...you spent $1500 on an EFI upgrade, not a conversion of a CIS 3.3l 930 engine. Apples 'n oranges.

I'd expect to spend 5k on a DIY EFI implementation when all was said and done...that's using the factory pancake manifold, throttle body, etc...

If had no other toys to play with, I'm sure I would have done EFI by now. My 930 runs great as it sits. I'm not motivated to tear it apart and take it off the road, and I have other things to mess around with.
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:09 AM
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As a bone stock matching numbers car owner that runs as built, it would be sacrilege to do those upgrades.
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexm930 View Post
As a bone stock matching numbers car owner that runs as built, it would be sacrilege to do those upgrades.
Not to me it wouldn't. I consider it a sacrilege to not modify these cars.
Old 10-14-2014, 01:21 PM
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Just a few things (and not all) I bought for my DIY conversion:

SDS EFI EM-4 6F including options (fuel pump circuit, sensors MAP, CHT, Knock, TPS circuit only, fast idle solenoid, RPM switch):

2101USD shipped

GSF EFI kit (blocks, rails, lines, Aeromotive FPR, adapters, seals) + injectors (ca. 400USD):

1510USD shipped

Turbokraft TPS kit:

203USD shipped

There will be easily 1000 bucks more for all the tiny little things...

Note: Shipping is to Switzerland, so prices for US would be a bit lower...

Back on posters toppic: Nothing and I am still happy I did
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Last edited by proffighter; 10-14-2014 at 02:21 PM..
Old 10-14-2014, 02:18 PM
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Tippy started out with a 3.2 Carrera. So it had the intake and was already an EFI car. It definetly cost more to convert a 930 since the whole fuel system needs to be upgraded. So adding the neccessary components to Tippys base $1500 definetly would be atleast $2500. And if you wanted to upgrade the 930 flat intake to a Carrera then it doesn't just stop there now you need to match the intake ports. Either you do a bolt on with a huge dimension difference (yeah right) or you pull to upper end apart and do it right..... Slippery Slope.......
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Old 10-14-2014, 02:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
^ a 3.2 is EFI to start out with...you spent $1500 on an EFI upgrade, not a conversion of a CIS 3.3l 930 engine. Apples 'n oranges.
I disagree on it was an upgrade. Virtually nothing was reusable minus CHT sensor, fuel injectors, and rails.

To me, an upgrade would have been a piggyback or ECU swap out. I removed EVERYTHING Motronic.

Fuel rails aren't that expensive and "jpnovak" will machine your stock injector blocks cheap.

Just reuse pancake intake.

Next excuse?!
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 03:03 PM
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Prices will definetly vary...for example a Motec M84 unit(without harnesses) starts at $4k..now there are more cost effective units one may go with but I'm sure(no strike that) I know you will spend several thusands of dollars by the time all is said and done. Your engine also has to pass a leak down and compression, if not a rebuilt will be in order.

I did the efi to a car that was already modified(purchased that way). I'm not sure if I would have done the same to a completely stock car...hence the reason I purchased mine..
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Old 10-14-2014, 03:10 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
Prices will definetly vary...for example a Motec M84 unit(without harnesses) starts at $4k..now there are more cost effective units one may go with but I'm sure(no strike that) I know you will spend several thusands of dollars by the time all is said and done.
Spending big money on Motec is a waste when many lesser brands carry the same features.

There is absolutely NO reason to drop that much coin on Motec. Run AEM, MS, Haltech, Holley EFI, etc., and spend the money elsewhere IMO.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 03:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #31 (permalink)
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I guess another thing I see frequently in 930 racers or restorers, is the amount of money spent on suspension/wheels/tires or restoration, which is costs many X's the cost of converting to EFI, but EFI rarely makes it on the list?
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Spending big money on Motec is a waste when many lesser brands carry the same features.

There is absolutely NO reason to drop that much coin on Motec. Run AEM, MS, Haltech, Holley EFI, etc., and spend the money elsewhere IMO.
No I disagree not a waste...I went with Motec because it's what my builder uses and is knowledgeable on. Yes he knows other ECU's but has had great success with Motec. One has to choose a system that either he has experience with or knows of a local tuner who has the experience. Without having a local tuner or knowing how to tune the system yourself...it really doesn't matter how much or how little you spend...
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Last edited by speednme1; 10-14-2014 at 04:26 PM..
Old 10-14-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
no i disagree not a waste...i went with motec because it's what my builder uses and is knowledgeable on. Yes he knows other ecu's but has had great success with motec. One has to choose a system that either he has experience with or knows of a local tuner who has the experience. Without having a local tuner or knowing how to tune the system yourself...it really doesn't how much or how little you spend...
++1
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Old 10-14-2014, 04:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #34 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
No I disagree not a waste...I went with Motec because it's what my builder uses and is knowledgeable on. Yes he knows other ECU's but has had great success with Motec. One has to choose a system that either he has experience with or knows of a local tuner who has the experience. Without having a local tuner or knowing how to tune the system yourself...it really doesn't matter how much or how little you spend...
Yeah, totally. If your tuner uses Motec, so be it.

Point is, if you're looking to DIY, no need for Motec.

Personally, I'd find another tuner who has experience on less expensive (but IMO, equally good) EFI systems........Chris at Turbo Kraft comes to mind.....
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 04:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Without having a local tuner or knowing how to tune the system yourself...it really doesn't matter how much or how little you spend...
These words are golden. Let them burn into your brain/wallet. EFI gone bad is the worst nightmare imaginable. Makes a cold start CIS issue seem like childs play. THAT is why folks buy wheels and mufflers first. Easy and effective. We're not all EE's.
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Old 10-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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+1 on find another tuner. MOTEC is designed to withstand mounting in the side-pod of an open wheel car. Gold plated contacts, ceramic substrate surface mount parts, and over-the-top connector quality is not something you really need on a street car. It's cool though.

That said, the more consumer oriented ECU's have more DYI friendly features that make a tuner un-necessary for many people willing to take the plunge. FYI, I spent around $3800 on mine:

ECU w/2bar MAP Sensor - $1100
Wiring - $140
Hoses and fittings - $324
Fuel Pressure Regulator - $154
Machine injector blocks - $60
Injectors - $845
Gaskets - $97
Fabricate fuel rails - $133
Machine MAP, TPS, IAT mount - $70
Cylinder Head Temp Sensor - $44
Throttle Position Sensor - $46
Air Temp Sensor - $62
Fasteners - $38
IAC adaptor - $185
Idle Air Control - $58
Digital CDI Box - $196
Ignition Module - $78
Wide Range O2 - $189

You have to remember that you are getting fuel injection AND ignition control AND a data acquisition system.

CIS flapper door has a noticeable delay to it - good riddance
Closed loop fueling around town - better fuel consumption
Fuel cutoff on closed pedal - cleaner plugs, nice sound, better throttle response
You can be more aggressive with timing, i.e. retard when the MAT gets too hot
More reliable, just read through this forum for sob stories
Relatively impervious to current fuels, even E85
More optimal timing at part throttle = better throttle response
You have a data acquisition system to immortalize your street encounters in pretty graphs

The fuel map is readily filled out by the DIY'er with the confidence to take it on. A big chunk is closed loop, another piece is not achievable and doesn't matter. The Red Zone is fun to tune at the drag strip or lonely stretch of road, and the middle you can just blend in.

Old 10-14-2014, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
I guess another thing I see frequently in 930 racers or restorers, is the amount of money spent on suspension/wheels/tires or restoration, which is costs many X's the cost of converting to EFI, but EFI rarely makes it on the list?
For many of us, myself included, there is no point to having a hot rod engine without also insuring the suspension, tires and brakes are up to the task. If you're building a car for twisty backroads or a road course, best to start with suspension, improve handling, and most important: driver improvement. Making more horsepower is the last thing you do.

Please tell me you're not still humping around on the original suspension bushings
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:10 PM
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Another tuner was never an option for me, my builder's 35+ years of racing and building Porsche engines and suspensions with the likes of Andial and Porsche Motorsport was all the certainty I needed. Differnt strokes for different folks..

There are probably plus and minuses to every system. Doing your due diligence based on your experience(or lack thereof) plus mapping out your budget should help one decide which system best suits you. I did mine and could not find too many bad things about Motec other than cost. All systems are DIY's..now whether one has the knowledge to DIY..that remains to be seen. It's a matter of educating yourself or trusting the person who is doing the tune..but regardless of what system one gets it should be a "set and forget it" type of system. Flipping a laptop for every road trip can be annoying...The only time a system should be re-tune is when something in the hardware setup has changed..i.e. headers,boost spring..etc..etc
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
+1 on find another tuner. MOTEC is designed to withstand mounting in the side-pod of an open wheel car. Gold plated contacts, ceramic substrate surface mount parts, and over-the-top connector quality is not something you really need on a street car. It's cool though.

That said, the more consumer oriented ECU's have more DYI friendly features that make a tuner un-necessary for many people willing to take the plunge. FYI, I spent around $3800 on mine:

ECU w/2bar MAP Sensor - $1100
Wiring - $140
Hoses and fittings - $324
Fuel Pressure Regulator - $154
Machine injector blocks - $60
Injectors - $845
Gaskets - $97
Fabricate fuel rails - $133
Machine MAP, TPS, IAT mount - $70
Cylinder Head Temp Sensor - $44
Throttle Position Sensor - $46
Air Temp Sensor - $62
Fasteners - $38
IAC adaptor - $185
Idle Air Control - $58
Digital CDI Box - $196
Ignition Module - $78
Wide Range O2 - $189

You have to remember that you are getting fuel injection AND ignition control AND a data acquisition system.

CIS flapper door has a noticeable delay to it - good riddance
Closed loop fueling around town - better fuel consumption
Fuel cutoff on closed pedal - cleaner plugs, nice sound, better throttle response
You can be more aggressive with timing, i.e. retard when the MAT gets too hot
More reliable, just read through this forum for sob stories
Relatively impervious to current fuels, even E85
More optimal timing at part throttle = better throttle response
You have a data acquisition system to immortalize your street encounters in pretty graphs

The fuel map is readily filled out by the DIY'er with the confidence to take it on. A big chunk is closed loop, another piece is not achievable and doesn't matter. The Red Zone is fun to tune at the drag strip or lonely stretch of road, and the middle you can just blend in.
Case closed!

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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 06:24 PM
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