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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
Please tell me you're not still humping around on the original suspension bushings
Luckily, the PO took care of that, plus helper coilovers.

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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 06:26 PM
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beancounter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Case closed!
What case?

No one is arguing against the notion that EFI is superior technically, or from a performance standpoint.

So going back to your topic, aside from cost and originality concerns we have a number of issues that hold people back from going EFI.

I don't feel like it right now...maybe someday I will, but not now.

Case closed
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Old 10-14-2014, 06:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
Another tuner was never an option for me, my builder's 35+ years of racing and building Porsche engines and suspensions with the likes of Andial and Porsche Motorsport was all the certainty I needed. Differnt strokes for different folks..

There are probably plus and minuses to every system. Doing your due diligence based on your experience(or lack thereof) plus mapping out your budget should help one decide which system best suits you. I did mine and could not find too many bad things about Motec other than cost. All systems are DIY's..now whether one has the knowledge to DIY..that remains to be seen. It's a matter of educating yourself or trusting the person who is doing the tune..but regardless of what system one gets it should be a "set and forget it" type of system. Flipping a laptop for every road trip can be annoying...The only time a system should be re-tune is when something in the hardware setup has changed..i.e. headers,boost spring..etc..etc
Well said. Not knocking Motec at all. Just can't fathom pricing for their higher end stuff. $10k for the ECU alone seems excessive.

I took a quick look at a $5k Motec system, and my lowly sub-$500 MS II was a wash when it came to features. Motec had some additional features over the MS II, then vise-versa.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 06:37 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
What case?

No one is arguing against the notion that EFI is superior technically, or from a performance standpoint.

So going back to your topic, aside from cost and originality concerns we have a number of issues that hold people back from going EFI.

I don't feel like it right now...maybe someday I will, but not now.

Case closed
$3800 for a 930 and a learning curve.

My point is, for less than the cost of a new triple-K turbo plus new Fuchs and tires, a 930 can be converted to EFI.



Ok, I'll stop.

I'm getting annoying......
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 06:43 PM
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I would rather be driving
 
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Cory. You are really stirring up the pot. Here's my $0.02 worth of a diatribe.

I have installed quite a few EFI systems on NA and turbo cars (including 930s). I often get asked the same questions by potential customers that, I am sure Chris and Brian get asked. Chris gets asked the questions as a proponent of EFI (and some incredible builds). Brian gets asked the questions as a fine re-builder of CIS components - and valid argument that CIS is a good system to rebuild.

The primary question is something like this. "My CIS system seems to be working properly. Should I go EFI?" My answer is that there is no need to change over for a stock system. If the time comes and a component fails this may be a time to convert depending on what failed. I have rebuilt CIS systems and you would be surprised what happens when you simply clean out the fuel head and reset the mixture. Ailing fuel pumps and out of spec WURs are another story.

The next question is something on the order of... "I want to modify my engine. Will EFI help me meet my power goals?" In this case, the answer is, "it depends, on what those goals are." Understanding the limitations of CIS, how it functions, and more importantly when will it fail to meet the fuel delivery demands ALL over the power curve is important. Sure you can play with system pressure to make it dump a lot of fuel on the top end if you crank up the boost. Often this means the low-end is running too rich and performance suffers. Brian seems to know these tricks. I do not, but can easily setup an EFI system that operates perfectly in both scenarios. What happens to CIS when you swap cams? CIS does not tolerate reversion pulses well. This is not a problem with EFI. See how there is no right answer to this one?

Other questions are related to system setups. Some guys want it turn key. Some like a base system setup that they can tweak themselves. Some guys want the components to completely DIY a system. The entire spectrum of market segment is out there. It is important to listen to a potential customer to understand what they want, their expectations and then weigh all the options.

I have heard this before that the best EFI system is one that the tuner understands. If your shop is familiar with Motec - use it. Maybe its Megasquirt, or Haltech, or SDS, or Emerald, or AEM, or... Name it. It does not matter because they are all computer chip based systems connected to wires to drive electromechanical devices. The differences are in the interface software and the human interface that understands how to properly make them work as a complete system. Only then, will the end result of a modern injection and timing system be apparent.

But isn't this what we would all expect? The CIS (jetronic) variations have been around since the late 60s. It debuted by Porsche in a 73MY (1973.5 911T). It was ahead of its time for drivability, fuel consumption and emissions. But a lot has happened since then. We know more about the combustion process and have more accurate methods to control them.

EFI can be installed on a budget. You do not have to spend mega dollars on these cars. Several responses to these threads outline very cost effective conversions. Is this more than rebuilding a WUR? In most cases, yes. Does CIS stir the soul? Not mine.

To me, its a no brainer to convert to EFI. Adding modern control systems to classic designs is what I am passionate about doing. The control systems can be engine, or suspension, or brakes or... Well you get the picture.


In the end the question to upgrade is about passion. Passion for keeping a car completely stock, Passion for mods as long as they are reversible, and even passion for no-holds barred turn this thing up to 11 type of mods.

What is your passion?

This last question is rhetorical to Cory. I know his answer and its not about keeping things stock.

And yes, it is possible to add EFI on the stock injection blocks. There are limitations to this, just like there is on everything else. Design a "system" and you will have good results with EFI. Part of that system is the human factor involvement.
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Old 10-14-2014, 07:25 PM
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^^^extremely well said JP
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Old 10-14-2014, 07:52 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnovak View Post
Cory. You are really stirring up the pot.
HAHA, maybe so.

Really curious if I was missing something holding folks back.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 10-14-2014, 08:22 PM
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Well put JP. I believe it boils down to how well your CIS runs now, your goals for the car, your aptitude for things mechanical versus electronics, and if you are DIY or a check book mechanic. It is good to hear EFI success stories and that there are some reputable folks out there such as Chris/TK (which is the ONLY place I would go if a checkbook mechanic). Folks on the fence about EFI need a strong support group that will help them make the right choices for their situation and help with the tuning, just as we have for CIS.
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Old 10-14-2014, 08:58 PM
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One thing I like about 930's K-Jet is the old school cool of it - it pumps out copious amounts of fuel with complete disregard for fuel economy (like a big ole FU to the tree huger types ), the dinosaur technology on display (mechanical fuel head & solid, steel fuel lines snaking here and there, along with the many curious gadgets spread about which are designed to make the system function in a passable manner in less than perfect air temperatures, and fuel and vacuum hoses spider-webbing the engine compartment) gives the appearance of vintage, gas guzzling, Devil may care engineering, and the crackle and popping of abundant unburnt fuel in the exhaust immediately following closed throttle, brings a smile to my face.

That said, at some point I'll rebuild my engine again, but with the aim of bigger horsepower, and at that point, the old school cool will likely have to go!

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 10-14-2014 at 09:07 PM..
Old 10-14-2014, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
One thing I like about 930's K-Jet is the old school cool of it - it pumps out copious amounts of fuel with complete disregard for fuel economy
Exactamondo!

Why change from that to something technically more advanced,superior etc etc, does not mean its better.It is only better in the minds of people who say it is.

EFI is for people who always want more, never happy with what theyve got, more fish on the other side of the lake, neighbors dog is bigger than mine, or that chick has got bigger tits than my wife dam.. got to upgrade more so i can go get a dyno sheet and show my mates at the pub etc etc
3-6 inches

CIS is about character , about smoke in the morning,rough running when cold, and all the smells that come with it, EFI doesnt come close. a 930 is an old car built with OLD parts and to have those parts keep working after 35 years without changing anything is a real test to the quality of the ride your in.
CIS is about real cars and real men who drive them who dont give a fart if the neighbors complain that smoke is going over their washing every morning,
we dont care what others think, we just drive and we are on the road more hours than EFI drivers cos EFI drivers are too busy sitting st home in their garage tweaking this and that, trying to get it perfect, so another point to note, CIS drivers are also better drivers,
7-12 inches

ANDDD CIS is proven over time
How many 930's won the world championship with EFI?
Answer=0

How many 930 won the world championship with CIS?
Answer=bucketloads

MY two cents,
To be honest though i have no idea what EFI is like and dont want to think about it im still trying to work out my fusebox wiring, i just like arguing for the hell of it
Old 10-14-2014, 09:56 PM
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[QUOTE=Robbbyg;8306556]
Exactamondo!

Why change from that to something technically more advanced,superior etc etc, does not mean its better.It is only better in the minds of people who say it is.

CIS is about character , about smoke in the morning,rough running when cold, and all the smells that come with it, EFI doesnt come close. a 930 is an old car built with OLD parts and to have those parts keep working after 35 years without changing anything is a real test to the quality of the ride your in.
CIS is about real cars and real men who drive them who dont give a fart if the neighbors complain that smoke is going over their washing every morning,
we dont care what others think, we just drive and we are on the road more hours than EFI drivers cos EFI drivers are too busy sitting st home in their garage tweaking this and that, trying to get it perfect, so another point to note

ANDDD CIS is proven over time
How many 930's won the world championship with EFI?
Answer=0

How many 930 won the world championship with CIS?
Answer=bucketloads

I'm with you!
Old 10-15-2014, 05:05 AM
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The 930 engine has great potential. But all engines are limited by how much air can be pumped through them. I love fast and I knew 25 years ago CIS would not get me there. I have been running EFI for 25 years. First a Carrera manifold with 50 lb injectors, then 72 lb injectors. After 5 years of running this set up, I sold it to a friend for his 930. And I installed high butterfly EFI ITB set up with custom plenoms and 96 lb injectors. Twin 54mm compressor wheels. This is fast. If you enjoy your CIS car, hey- to each his own. But don't complain if you ever roll up next to me and get you *** handed to you on a platter. That 930 engine will never see it's real potential with CIS. Just one guys opinion.
Old 10-15-2014, 05:40 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
One thing I like about 930's K-Jet is the old school cool of it - it pumps out copious amounts of fuel with complete disregard for fuel economy (like a big ole FU to the tree huger types ), the dinosaur technology on display (mechanical fuel head & solid, steel fuel lines snaking here and there, along with the many curious gadgets spread about which are designed to make the system function in a passable manner in less than perfect air temperatures, and fuel and vacuum hoses spider-webbing the engine compartment) gives the appearance of vintage, gas guzzling, Devil may care engineering, and the crackle and popping of abundant unburnt fuel in the exhaust immediately following closed throttle, brings a smile to my face.



That said, at some point I'll rebuild my engine again, but with the aim of bigger horsepower, and at that point, the old school cool will likely have to go!
Ronnie, let's AC my car from ground up with your expertise and we will 'Squirt yours....👍
Old 10-15-2014, 05:41 AM
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I like the old school cool of my horse and buggy. It pumps out copious amounts of partially burned hay and oats with complete disregard for street cleanliness, like a big ole FU to internal combustion. The dinosaur technology on display (bit, bridle, harnesses snaking here and there, along with the many curious buckles spread about gives the appearance of vintage quick trotting Devil may care engineering, and the occasional horse fart immediately following a spirited trot brings a smile to my face.
Old 10-15-2014, 06:23 AM
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beancounter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
I'm getting annoying......
^agree


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnovak View Post
In the end the question to upgrade is about passion. Passion for keeping a car completely stock, Passion for mods as long as they are reversible, and even passion for no-holds barred turn this thing up to 11 type of mods.
^and this is the gold star moment of this thread.

OP's topic is aside from $ and originality concerns, why not EFI? I think those two are the biggies, and Jamie's nugget encapsulates all the other reasons which are entirely subjective. Perhaps I can afford to build the biggest penis EFI 930 that the world has ever seen, but I really don't care to. I don't have a passion for that. I'm happy with my car the way it is, and frankly all I want from it today is to start up and run like scalded cat when I feel like driving it.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Ronnie, let's AC my car from ground up with your expertise and we will 'Squirt yours....👍
That sounds like a plan, Tips!
Old 10-15-2014, 08:13 AM
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Since I would like to believe the EFI is a set it & forgot it, and I would also like to avoid chasing down issues.
Plan A: Take it to TurboKraft and have them install & tune the set up.
Plan B: diy set up from JPNOVAK, who send me a complete breakdown of the parts needed, and
offered his assistance.
I'm gathering up the parts for the 3.3 rebuild, and at this time I'm staying with the CIS because I don't want, or can afford another project.
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Old 10-15-2014, 08:49 AM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Good advise is start a new engine with CIS before converting to EFI to avoid washing out cylinders during extreme rich running conditions during the tuning process.
Old 10-15-2014, 10:57 AM
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Some day I I'll be efi my awesome CIS 930, just because I have to try it.

On my Carrera 3.0 I even have the MS harness and temp sensors just sitting there, but for now CIS is doing just fine, and time is none existent.

I also have a hx-40super and a S362 (freshly rebuilt by me...)

That is what this is about for me.

Some day...until then I'll just drive.
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Old 10-15-2014, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Good advise is start a new engine with CIS before converting to EFI to avoid washing out cylinders during extreme rich running conditions during the tuning process.
Uh, what?
Never had that happen, never been that rich during any EFI tuning. Sounds like extra work for nothing, IMO.
Didn't that last car you did fire up the first time, too?


If you're not going to DIY the conversion, then I FULLY agree with the statement that the best EFI system is one your tuner is familiar with.

And if your tuner isn't familiar with EFI tuning, cannot show you cars his shop has done successfully and put you in contact with the cars' owners, then look elsewhere. The cost of mistakes can get very expensive, very quickly, and *this is supposed to be fun* not a headache.

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Old 10-15-2014, 09:21 PM
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