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Quote:
Originally Posted by dos531 View Post
If you research the CIS system you will realize that is is FAR from simple. An EFI system is extremely simple mechanically.
but complex electronically.

CIS is WAY more reliable. i have NO electronics in my car other than the CD unit and coil. the only thing that will stop me dead in my tracks is a fuel pump and dist coil.

not to mention what brian said. setting up EFI could cost more than the EFI.

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Old 10-16-2014, 02:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TurboKraft View Post
Uh, what?
Never had that happen, never been that rich during any EFI tuning. Sounds like extra work for nothing, IMO.
Didn't that last car you did fire up the first time, too?


If you're not going to DIY the conversion, then I FULLY agree with the statement that the best EFI system is one your tuner is familiar with.

And if your tuner isn't familiar with EFI tuning, cannot show you cars his shop has done successfully and put you in contact with the cars' owners, then look elsewhere. The cost of mistakes can get very expensive, very quickly, and *this is supposed to be fun* not a headache.
I meant for a first time DIY'er. Of course if you've done this before and have a base tune file, shouldn't need to.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:50 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
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To clarify. My first choice would be to have efi, not install the cis, then take it off and go to efi. If efi is a set it & forget it, then when some issue comes up you could rule out the efi as a possible issue. To me, it would be worth taking it to someone who knows what they are doing.

The second choice is diy. If I really want efi and can't afford the first choice, then this is the only way I'm going to get it. I'm a mechanical guy and like modifying everything. So installing it and get it running wouldn't be a big thing, debugging it and getting it running to it's maximum would be. The nearest dyno is 60 mi. away, and if the guy isn't familiar with my efi set up, then it's up to me to figure it out. Since I'm not an electronics/computer savy guy I see a lot of aggravation.

The cis choice is based on a P shop being able (hopefully) to dial it in. In my current motor build I sent the fuel head & wur out for a rebuild, and will use new injectors, so this should alleviate some of the dialing it in issues. After it's up and running I'll take it to the dyno shop where hopefully the P mechanic can do the final adjustments on it. I keep using the word "hopefully" because I've had a few lousy experiences with reputable shops screwing my motors up.
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Old 10-16-2014, 06:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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I think it is a smart way to go. I might only suggest that you go ahead and mount the cylinder head temp sensor, and 60-2 flywheel, if the system you have in mind needs them.

On another note, two people in CA have gotten exemptions for their EFI's by doing the $2500 CARB FTP tests. They met the 1980 standard withe sequential injection, 400 CPI cat, and no air pump.
Old 10-16-2014, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
On another note, two people in CA have gotten exemptions for their EFI's by doing the $2500 CARB FTP tests. They met the 1980 standard withe sequential injection, 400 CPI cat, and no air pump.
Is that on the board somewhere? I'm not finding it in my searches. Would love to know more about their experience.
Old 10-16-2014, 08:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
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Quote:


Quote de dos531



If you research the CIS system you will realize that is is FAR from simple. An EFI system is extremely simple mechanically.


but complex electronically.


It's about the same as wiring up an entire sound system in a vehicle.

It's really not that much.

Now, you can go crazy and have everything a modern vehicle has, but IMO, not needed on our dinosaurs and most folks I'd think would be happy with a great running car in any conditions.
Old 10-16-2014, 10:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
 
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I'd admit, I got wrapped around the axle when I installed my EFI and the car wouldn't start, but it technically was not the EFI that threw me off.

It was I had the coils wired backwards (thanks to Ford and their genius wiring scheme......a whole 'nuther topic ).

The symptoms were like any other car built that has crossed plug wires; backfiring through intake and exhaust.

Once wired right (by jpnovack), good to go.

Any decent mechanic would have figured it out, but I had it in my mind the EFI was the culprit.
Old 10-16-2014, 10:18 AM
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I think I have something on the order of 50 wires from the ECU that I do not and will not use. To be honest, now that I have my head wrapped around this so called EFI thing, it really is NOT that difficult or hard to understand. And yes, I still have to do the final tuning on a dyno, but that being said, I now understand the dynamics of what is going on, and why.

I actually look forward to making some to the "trick" adjustments to spool the turbo quicker, etc. ( and the biggie.... looking forward to running E-85!!!!)
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
I like the old school cool of my horse and buggy. It pumps out copious amounts of partially burned hay and oats with complete disregard for street cleanliness, like a big ole FU to internal combustion. The dinosaur technology on display (bit, bridle, harnesses snaking here and there, along with the many curious buckles spread about gives the appearance of vintage quick trotting Devil may care engineering, and the occasional horse fart immediately following a spirited trot brings a smile to my face.
lol... you do have a creative sense of humor!
Old 10-16-2014, 10:53 AM
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Quote:


Quote de Speedy Squirrel



On another note, two people in CA have gotten exemptions for their EFI's by doing the $2500 CARB FTP tests. They met the 1980 standard withe sequential injection, 400 CPI cat, and no air pump.


Is that on the board somewhere? I'm not finding it in my searches. Would love to know more about their experience.
+1 on that. Opens up a whole other world of rationalization...
Old 10-16-2014, 01:41 PM
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Nothing. You named the only two reasons.
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
but complex electronically.

CIS is WAY more reliable. i have NO electronics in my car other than the CD unit and coil. the only thing that will stop me dead in my tracks is a fuel pump and dist coil.

not to mention what brian said. setting up EFI could cost more than the EFI.
well, a cooked green distributor wire, a blown WUR diaphragm, a blown decel valve diaphragm, a weak fuel accumulator, ruptured control pressure lines, leaking injectors, cracked injector blocks, a faulty overboost protection sending unit, a aux air valve that doesn't function properly.

all of these will slow you down or stop you dead in your tracks with CIS.
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Old 10-17-2014, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkracer21j View Post
well, a cooked green distributor wire, a blown WUR diaphragm, a blown decel valve diaphragm, a weak fuel accumulator, ruptured control pressure lines, leaking injectors, cracked injector blocks, a faulty overboost protection sending unit, a aux air valve that doesn't function properly.

all of these will slow you down or stop you dead in your tracks with CIS.
This. I trust modern day electronics over the 30 year old mechanicals any day.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:01 AM
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This post was on another thread, thanks Scarseller, this is why I do not want EFI.... Tuning
Many times people with EFI say how wonderful it is, after it is tuned which can take years to get right for all occasions.


"I own a modified euro 3.2L and it has custom cams, extrude honed port polished intake, light flywheel, SSIs with 2in2out M&K pipe. Runs the stock Motronic DME. I bought the car like this and it ran like hell at WOT and very hi-loads but was very un-drivable, stalled easily bad idle quality, failed emissions, terrible cold start, list goes on.

Mechanically it was very well built solid engine, cost the prior owner $15K to build the motor but ran so poorly on the street he sold it and I bought the entire car for 18K! He could not sell it for over a year. Bought it back in 2006 and then my journey began, I'm a EE with a computer science degree so I opened up the DME and saw the processor and as luck would have it I actually programmed that exact same processor back in the 80s at IBM we used it for real time embedded factory control systems.

I immediately disassembled the program code and spent the next 4 years (on and off in spare time) understanding the entire stack of code not just the maps. Once I knew how it worked and what all the maps did I then fine tuned the issues, re-tuned the maps and the car drove far better. One other complication was that someone prior to me decided that increased fuel pressure is a good thing so they crushed the FP regulator in a vise and increase FP from 2.5bar (stock) to 3.0bar, not a good idea!

After I got the car running better I then really decided to start making more changes to the old EFI components. I removed the AFM and replaced it with a modern day Lab grade Hot Film MAF and then I re-wrote the entire Air Fuel portion of the software in the DME to properly process the MAF signal. You can NOT make a MAF pretend to be a AFM for a lot of reasons but one big reason is that the MAF response to air flow changes in about 10ms while the AFM takes 100-200ms and the Acel Enrichment must be done differently.

So 8 years later I have a great driving 3.2L that pushes about 270HP at the crank at 5800RPMs. But it still has a slight drivability issue that I can't tune around completely. This engine surges at very light loads in the 2600-3200RPM range, like foot on the gas very very slightly at lower speeds, parking lot crawl or slow traffic in 2nd gear the engine can sort of kangaroo/bucking the car. I've spoke to several experts and some tips have helped a lot but you just can't dial this out. It's most likely cam related as even other builds that use carbs have had these issues.

Would I trade the experience over the pat 8 years, no way, loved every minute of it. Developed new products for these cars and have a few local cars running some of what I've learned. But the point is this experience is not for everyone, the prior owner hated the car and lost his shirt on this car!"
Author is Sal
and I am not even close to his level of expertise, tuning flat scares me.
Old 10-17-2014, 08:18 AM
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^interesting...

but not entirely relevant because that masochist apparently worked on reprogramming the stock Motronic DME. Any off the shelf stand alone EMS will come with some sort of software based user interface for programming/tuning. Some may be a bit clunky, but nothing like trying to decipher embedded code on a 20 year old Bosch motronic chip.

My race car has Motec EFI - its a very old unsupported ECU which has DOS based tuning software. A bit clunky vs. more modern stuff but very easy to use IMO. It runs awesome at WOT, some part throttle and idle issues, but its a race car so I don't really care. The part throttle, driveability tuning, cold start, hot start, etc. is the stuff that can take a long time to dial in perfectly.
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Old 10-17-2014, 08:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #75 (permalink)
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First of all, he's referring to the first ECU developed for a Porsche.

Second, Sal was tuning using EPROM burners and not modern tuning software.

That is a really bad reason to NOT use EFI.

Sal did it through the school of hard Knox.

I give him credit for having a huge impact on my knowledge of tuning.

If you equipped him with modern tuning software on modern EFI, he'd be tuning in a matters of hours or days.

I retuned my car with the bigger injectors in a matter of hours, once you get the methodology down.
Old 10-17-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
First of all, he's referring to the first ECU developed for a Porsche.

Second, Sal was tuning using EPROM burners and not modern tuning software.

That is a really bad reason to NOT use EFI.

Sal did it through the school of hard Knox.

I give him credit for having a huge impact on my knowledge of tuning.

If you equipped him with modern tuning software on modern EFI, he'd be tuning in a matters of hours or days.

I retuned my car with the bigger injectors in a matter of hours, once you get the methodology down.
You are correct. Let a shadetree mechanic at a CIS system with no knowledge of said system, or a set of guages, and you will have a mess!
Same thing with a high end aftermarket EFI system. You need to have a decent understanding of the building blocks and how things relate to each other.
Just like picking a turbocharger for your 930 (there are books devoted to just turbocharger theory), there are also several great books out there to read up on EFI as well.

I remember back in the early to mid 90's visiting and talking with Doc Emard at his house in Stone Mountain, GA. His slant 930 had an EFI system on it and a 3.2L intake on it... I remember that thing had 600 or so HP as well... So we are doing nothing new... just using improved software and hardware to get us there......
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Old 10-17-2014, 09:48 AM
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1. The argued perceived devaluing is subjective. For example if you've the very best that money can buy and have a professionally installed system that meets motorsport or factory quality standards the value is then increased.

Do this and cut corners and sure you've devalued your car.

2. If you retain the factory original jetronic system and its stored and well kept, in the event that you are actually selling the car you've the original system therefore there should't be an issue.



3. Face it, I love CIS, but it's obsolete. In order to stay in the rehelm of contemporary performance. There is little you are going to do with CIS against modern management. If you are totally alright with period correct performance and tuning then you aren't concerned about Stand Alone engine management.

4. Tuning parts on cars again, it's in the eye of the beholder and some parts or modifications are trends and just that while others are timeless. To some this is un desirable and to others it increases. Generally far and few " tuner " cars command value unless they've notority or are just that amazing.

5. There are some cars I would refrain from altering because they are rare, or simply in such pristine condition and meet the criteria for collection purposes or show car criteria.

6. I've no intentions on selling, and only ever have let go three cars. Which was in my youth. I think the point is you buy it not so much as an investment rather to enjoy and hand down to your sons or daughters.

Ciao.
M

Last edited by Schwarzeritter; 10-17-2014 at 10:07 AM..
Old 10-17-2014, 09:50 AM
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The other thing is, you are not alone anymore. There are tons of forums out there to help get things straightened out. Many consumer make have some auto tune capability to fill in the closed loop regions too.
Old 10-17-2014, 11:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #79 (permalink)
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The other thing is, you are not alone anymore. There are tons of forums out there to help get things straightened out. Many consumer make have some auto tune capability to fill in the closed loop regions too.
Ditto

Old 10-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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