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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficke View Post
Right on.
I do not want EFI any more than I want a new Turbo, and if I wanted my 930 to run like a new Turbo I would just buy a newer one, they are cheaper after all
The water pumpers sure are!

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Old 10-18-2014, 07:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #101 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Why would you assume everyone wants EFI? Microsoft assumed everyone wanted 8.0 too.
If I wanted EFI I'd buy a modern car. The 930 for me is a period car and some of us enjoy it that way.
"Why would you assume everyone wants EFI?"
Valid question.
Equally valid is, why would you assume everyone doesn't want EFI?

It is a different driving experience, like comparing driving a 930 with a G50 vs. the same car with a stock 4-speed.

Using your computer software analogy:
"Microsoft assumed everyone wanted 8.0 too."
Sure, not everyone wanted Win8.1. WinXP worked quite well, so did Win98, and versions prior.
And, just like CIS on your Turbo, you don't have to upgrade your home computer you don't want to.

Yes, it costs money -- but so does maintaining the old stuff you've already got.
Yes, it takes some knowledge and skill to implement -- but there's resources out there, you're not the first one doing it and don't have to attempt it alone.
Yes, you could screw up royally while upgrading and do damage -- heck, if you're careless you can brick your computer. That would be like the "waiting 3 years on Tommy Tuner" horror story you're mentioning. But more often then not, the software loads fine, and with some minor fiddling and tweaking things go smoothly for years to come.
The same goes for EFI.

Hot-rodding a 911 Turbo for big power and performance on-par to modern cars, while voluntarily restricting yourself to using CIS, is akin to trying to run the latest version of Solidworks 3D design software on your 1984 IBM 5170 or Apple IIe. You may be able to pull it off, but it is taking the hard road and the results won't be the same.

The world moves on, and while not everyone wants to try to run the latest and greatest, neither does everyone want to sit and be content with things as they are.

Period pieces are great for some, the more original the better.
For others, they're a blank canvas, to be colored in as desired.
Both are pursued passionately.
Both are valid.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Besides money and perceived value loss, what is holding you back from EFI?"
Joking aside, what I'm seeing is answers that, separate from the factors in the threads title, could be separated into two groups:
1. Those who wouldn't convert, period. Factory is original, good enough, and change is not necessary and/or could change some characteristics of the car.
2. Those who would possibly convert, but lack sufficient knowledge to attempt as a DIY job.

Overcoming (2) requires education, and there's plenty -- too many? -- resources out there with information explaining and answering "how." A little reading, and conversations with those who've done it before, goes a long way to providing the understanding and the confidence to tackle an EFI conversion, if someone is interested.
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Old 10-18-2014, 08:49 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #102 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
The whole list was fun to read (I don't have anything against CIS, but I can still appreciate the list's humor), but #2 really had me rolling! It's what I always think of when people say how you should leave the stock intercooler, turbo, ect. on these cars for some sort of nostalgic reason.
Glad you found it amusing, it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
Mostly.

I have nothing against CIS, either, except when:
a) someone wants more from it than is realistic/practical -- then I find it a ridiculous expenditure of resources to modify and tune, ex: to get 996T performance levels
b) parts are NLA or priced such that it is *less expensive* to go EFI -- C2T and 3.6T EZ69 ignition control units are discontinued (last price just under $4k), 3.6T injectors are being dropped ($240-ish/ea), the Euro fuel lines were discontinued...
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Old 10-18-2014, 09:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #103 (permalink)
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Again, assuming everyone wants a 500HP 930 that runs like a 997tt. The original post assumes all this which is where immediately the thread is derailed.
Everyone knows CIS has its practical limits. If you have no intention of exceeding them then EFI becomes a lot less desirable.
Frankly I don't know why anyone would care what's holding us old school fools back. We'll fiddle with our screwdrivers and you can go play with your laptop.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-19-2014, 03:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #104 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
and a 930 you don't want to drive for 3 years while Tommy Tuner tries to figure out why it won't run.
i didn't know efi was still such a mystery in america land!
Old 10-19-2014, 03:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #105 (permalink)
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Quote:

Quote de RarlyL8



and a 930 you don't want to drive for 3 years while Tommy Tuner tries to figure out why it won't run.

i didn't know efi was still such a mystery in america land!
It's not, it really is not.

All someone has to do is read a little.
Old 10-19-2014, 05:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #106 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Again, assuming everyone wants a 500HP 930 that runs like a 997tt. The original post assumes all this which is where immediately the thread is derailed.

Everyone knows CIS has its practical limits. If you have no intention of exceeding them then EFI becomes a lot less desirable.

Frankly I don't know why anyone would care what's holding us old school fools back. We'll fiddle with our screwdrivers and you can go play with your laptop.
My intention was to find out if there were myths out there that some one heard that someone heard that someone heard that yada, yada, yada couldn't get there 930 running right due to whatever.

Or, that someone converted and the car had "unexpected acceleration" syndrome, or other silly fallacy.

I've gotten enough PM's regarding EFI (I'm sure jpnovak has gotten many X's) to know there's a lot of folks wanting to convert.

BTW, need to answer one PM now about it now.
Old 10-19-2014, 05:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #107 (permalink)
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If the myths you wish to dispell are old wive's tales of EFI goblins then by all means that is a worthy thing to do. Knocking CIS however is not. You can promote selling and tuning EFI systems without bashing CIS. They are two different worlds and there should be respect for both.

A buddy of mine just finished what I consider to be an incredible project involving EFI. He purchased a stock Corvette, rebuilt the engine, added a supercharger, then meth. All of that required an extensive EFI re-map.
The results are stunning:
> less than $30K total spent including the price of the car
> 1000+HP
> 28mpg highway
> daily driver with no hint that anything is under the hood
> how about 1/8 mile in the high 5's and 1/4 mile in the high 8's, then drive to the beach with the top down?

I mention this build so you see I completely undertand the capability of modern engine management.

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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 10-19-2014, 07:47 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
He purchased a stock Corvette, rebuilt the engine, added a supercharger, then meth. All of that required an extensive EFI re-map.
I see the DOT-legal drag slicks on the back wheels
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #109 (permalink)
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I have not bashed CIS one bit, and in my OP, I stated the respect I have for it. It's a mechanical marvel.

What I don't respect, is myths around EFI being akin to brain surgery.

It's not hard, just do a little reading on the webs.
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #110 (permalink)
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As an example Ruf used efi on his ctr program. 930 btr used cis. When power reaches a certain limit efi makes the most sense. This is not just due to power but to be able to fine tune your fi for great reliability and hopefully prevent engine failure. As I mentioned before if my car would have been stock I might not have ever went efi but since it wasn't(main reason we got it) I decided to go for it.....and no I don't have an endless or separate bank account...I'm a working slug like the most of us..
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #111 (permalink)
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No EFI is not brain surgery, you just need to know what you're getting yourself into before tearing the CIS off your engine. I think folks that are electronically inclined simplify it too much as it is easy and inexpensive for them. If you know little about EFI you are in a whole different world that could get real expensive real fast.

Yes Paul he has to run drag radials full time as normal tires tear loose at 100mph if you can imagine such a thing. If the drag radials are cold they will tear loose at 80mph. It is an insane machine.
The level of sophistication and tune-ability of engine management seen in modern production vehicles such as this Corvette is astounding to me. Not quite the level you would see in a $2000 Megasquirt system, which is why I balk at the idea of cheap EFI. Do you need this level of precision? Probably not but it is sure nice and done right.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 10-19-2014, 10:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #112 (permalink)
 
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Mainly, many don't want all that stuff on the crank snout. Makes it look more like added on verses built in.

The crank torsional vibration scatters the crank signal on the snout end, but not that important unless you are using individual cylinder knock control, or misfire detection.
Quote:


Quote de Speedy Squirrel



I might only suggest that you go ahead and mount the cylinder head temp sensor, and 60-2 flywheel, if the system you have in mind needs them.


Is there any advantage to having the teeth on the flywheel as opposed to a trigger wheel mounted to the crank pulley? I can't think of one.

Flywheels are expensive...
Old 10-19-2014, 11:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #113 (permalink)
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Remember, you get ignition control and data acquisition. You can really sharpen the throttle response with EFI's ignition timing capabilities.

It really is easy guys, short attention span high school kids are doing it every day!

This is a very mature technology now. It is not that big of a deal.
Old 10-19-2014, 11:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #114 (permalink)
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They are not Pelicanites. The circumstances were a California resident wanting to bring a 1981 ROW car into the state. The only way to do that was to make it meet CARB standards. They chose EFI and a cat. EFI can inject only on a cylinders closed intake, and also run lambda 1 to make the cat work. All good stuff that does not harm the full throttle performance. Once that is tested and passes, CARB bases the visual inspection list on that setup.

Quote:


Quote de Speedy Squirrel



On another note, two people in CA have gotten exemptions for their EFI's by doing the $2500 CARB FTP tests. They met the 1980 standard withe sequential injection, 400 CPI cat, and no air pump.


Is that on the board somewhere? I'm not finding it in my searches. Would love to know more about their experience.
Old 10-19-2014, 11:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
The level of sophistication and tune-ability of engine management seen in modern production vehicles such as this Corvette is astounding to me. Not quite the level you would see in a $2000 Megasquirt system, which is why I balk at the idea of cheap EFI. Do you need this level of precision? Probably not but it is sure nice and done right.
Please tell me what function the Corvette has that MegaSquirt doesn't (that is needed for engine control).

MegaSquirt uses SMT technology on certain board types, others are built through through-hole if one chooses.

This means pick and place machines and solder ovens that repeat quality 100% once dialed in correctly fully automated.

There is nothing cheap about MegaSquirt (printed circuit board wise).

I work at a company that builds $10,000 computers and million dollar servers; MegaSquirt manufactures their components the same as we do nor do they use subpar components.

Last edited by Tippy; 10-19-2014 at 11:57 AM..
Old 10-19-2014, 11:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #116 (permalink)
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Here's a cool add on for the Motec..many other things can be added..shift lights do work
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Old 10-19-2014, 02:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #117 (permalink)
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from another angle
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Rey....77 930 "the Mistress"
Old 10-19-2014, 02:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #118 (permalink)
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I like that. It looks like it was made for that spot.
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Old 10-19-2014, 02:38 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #119 (permalink)
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the RADIO... how much for the r a d i o . . . .

just kidding

Old 10-19-2014, 03:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #120 (permalink)
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