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Rocket Scientist
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Detroit
Posts: 948
Quote:

Quote

The level
Please tell me what function the Corvette has that MegaSquirt doesn't (that is needed for engine control).
The list of things that the Corvette controller has that I consider necessary is a long one, and includes stuff you probably can't even imagine, but even a batch fired consumer EFI system is better than CIS, significantly.

Old 10-19-2014, 03:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #121 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torresmd View Post
I like that. It looks like it was made for that spot.
Thank you...I was very happy to learn the size before I puchased the unit..I did a cardboard mockup to make sure it wasn't going to look too out of place..
Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
the RADIO... how much for the r a d i o . . . .

just kidding
Lol...I wanted something that looked old schoolish..the Mcintosh fit the bill..
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Rey....77 930 "the Mistress"
Old 10-19-2014, 05:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #122 (permalink)
umop apisdn
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
We'll fiddle with our screwdrivers and you can go play with your laptop.
Or you can do both on the one vehicle

I'm one of the fence sitters when it comes to EFI conversion, when chasing power and performance I've always retrofitted a larger capacity driveline in a smaller vehicle.
So for me, more power would be a Panamera turbo swap (or that 4wd thing) into the 928, what I am chasing is NVH and drivability. Updating the old beast with modern tech where applicable.

So for arguments sake, assume that in general, budget oriented EFI retrofits are not taken to a high level of tune under all possible operating conditions, as many never see a dyno or a professional tuner.
And also assume that a majority of factory systems including CIS are most likely in poor condition prior to the move to aftermarket EFI.

Also considering the advancements in injector and control technology over the last decade or so. And the theory that delivery method is less important than accuracy when discussing an engines Fuel/Air/Spark requirements.
A highly calibrated twitching monkey with a bucket of fuel and a hose, if delivered at the right location and the right quantity, could in theory be your fuel system. (A similar and suitably insulated monkey, also calibrated, with a coil and a switch could handle ignition duties)

Are we certain any of the available data represents either system fairly?

My nutty little project was undertaken purely because of that uncertainty.
- I'm not concerned with originality, but changes must blend in functionally and visually.
- I am wary of change for the sake of it - the changes must have a verifiable benefit, and be of the same or better quality in form and function.
- I knew and could verify that the CIS on the vehicle was in good condition and operating to spec before any changes.
- I was dubious as to the ability to replicate the base line tune in less than a year. i.e cold and hot, summer and winter, city and highway etc. etc.
- CIS had some failings and EFI had some advantages, so could the positives from both be merged eliminating the negatives.

So my questions to the group
I am curious though as to the throttle response comments.
A prior post mentions correctly that mapped timing will see improvements over mechanical advance. I've also seen and heard numerous comments over time that CIS has better atomisation due to the pressure levels and that CIS also has better throttle response over standard EFI. Bosch also state in the technical instruction manual that CIS was designed for performance, although the comparison system could only be L/LH-Jetronic and possibly early Motronic.
Ignoring ignition and data logging as electronic obviously trumps mechanical.
Is there actually a functional limitation to CIS or are the identifiable issues related to the lack of control rather than capacity.
For a high HP installation if we imagine CIS was able to supply the correct amount of fuel under all conditions is there anything EFI would still bring to the table as an advantage.
Is there any truth to the CIS = Performance comment from Bosch?
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1981 928S 4.7 ROW with KE3-Jetronic
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Last edited by Reanimotion; 10-19-2014 at 10:43 PM..
Old 10-19-2014, 10:35 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #123 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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You may be confusing MFI for CIS.
CIS is inferior to modern EFI in many ways, but that is not the point.
If your goal is more than 400WHP then EFI is necessary for most.
It all comes down to what you want out of your old exotic sports car. Some want to make it act as a new car and some like the old school feel and hands on mechanics of OEM fuel injection.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #124 (permalink)
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i feel like my CIS is going to be like carburettors i've had... great while it works now, but when it breaks i'll be happy to upgrade.
Old 10-20-2014, 04:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #125 (permalink)
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OK, Fine, If you do not use EFI you are throwing money away and leaving power on the table Ok I get it.
Let's talk facts
So I if I want to buy a bolt on EFI system that I can tune what are the hard numbers, where it can be found and purchased today.
Show us facts, please. No "I did mine for around $1,500"
Let's see what you really have to spend to go EFI today.
Old 10-20-2014, 06:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #126 (permalink)
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EFI will be the last mod on my 930 "hotrod" project. My issue is cash! I took the car down to the tub and rework EVERYTHING. Coilover conversion, new blade type fuse box, new wiring, complete custom interior, custom full length center console, stainless braided oil lines, 1/2" hard aluminum fuel lines thru the tunnel, boat load of engine mods, new paint, replaced every nut, bolt and rubber gaskets, front oil cooler, bunch of TurboKraft mods, etc.

So I am alittle short on the EFI end. Would like to final drive this thing for a few years. Then - I think I will just send it down to Chris and get it set up properly. In the end I think my EFI conversion will be around $3K to $5K. Including dyno tunes, etc.

I can't do anything half way. That is my problem - lol. Do it right or just do not do it.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #127 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficke View Post
OK, Fine, If you do not use EFI you are throwing money away and leaving power on the table Ok I get it.
Let's talk facts
So I if I want to buy a bolt on EFI system that I can tune what are the hard numbers, where it can be found and purchased today.
Show us facts, please. No "I did mine for around $1,500"
Let's see what you really have to spend to go EFI today.
Facts are hard to pin down without knowing what system you have chosen. From the thread, it looks like $1500 is doable. One has to realize that some of the parts were pre-own, so some savyness in properly planning out your project is needed. Will the user be doing his own tuning? Is your engine healthy enough for the conversion?
Parts needed include ecu, injectors, 3.2 intake or intake manifold injector block and fuel rail set, harnesses, coil plugs, etc.. etc. Does the user want all new parts or is pre-own ok? Would you be DIY or farming it out? I cannot stress enough the importance of the end product..in my case it was about safely increasing the reliability of my engine while adding extra power. Efi should be about reliability first...power second..at least that is my opinion..I could be wrong
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:13 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #128 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
Facts are hard to pin down without knowing what system you have chosen. From the thread, it looks like $1500 is doable. One has to realize that some of the parts were pre-own, so some savyness in properly planning out your project is needed. Will the user be doing his own tuning? Is your engine healthy enough for the conversion?
Parts needed include ecu, injectors, 3.2 intake or intake manifold injector block and fuel rail set, harnesses, coil plugs, etc.. etc. Does the user want all new parts or is pre-own ok? Would you be DIY or farming it out? I cannot stress enough the importance of the end product..in my case it was about safely increasing the reliability of my engine while adding extra power. Efi should be about reliability first...power second..at least that is my opinion..I could be wrong
Ok,
Assuming the engine is fine and I just want to buy the parts to make a 930 CIS engine EFI
I do the labor.
How much are the parts?
I see in Kit form Clewette is $5,200
'Gosuperfast' kit is $5,500
I did not see 'Turbokrafts' kit price? I am guessing it would be closer to 6k than the 1.5K But I could be wrong on that.
How do they stack up to each other? what is the pro's and con's

It looks like $6,000 is the starting point without labor, installation or tuning for CIS to EFI on our 930's

Just as a comparison point, rebuilt fuel head, rebuilt warm up regulator and all new injectors with o-rings can be had for less than 2k for the CIS.

Thanks for the reply
Old 10-20-2014, 07:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #129 (permalink)
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I started a thread a few weeks ago asking the real cost of efi and got a lot of good responses. JPNovak sent me a breakdown kit which came to approximately $2500. This was diy kit w/new parts for a guy like me who doesn't know enough to know what used parts to buy. Also me doing the tuning. This is the basic running efi conversion without any of the fancy ad ons.
I've read a few negative things about the Clewett on a 930 (do a search).
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Old 10-20-2014, 08:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #130 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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First, you have to figure out what you want from your EMS. Here are some high level examples:

1. First rev Motronic level (cheap pricing)
2. Extra features, better injector resolution, faster processors (medium pricing)
3. Advanced as a modern Corvette with additional features no OEM offers (fairly pricey)
Old 10-20-2014, 08:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficke View Post
Ok,
Assuming the engine is fine and I just want to buy the parts to make a 930 CIS engine EFI
I do the labor.
How much are the parts?
I see in Kit form Clewette is $5,200
'Gosuperfast' kit is $5,500
I did not see 'Turbokrafts' kit price? I am guessing it would be closer to 6k than the 1.5K But I could be wrong on that.
How do they stack up to each other? what is the pro's and con's

It looks like $6,000 is the starting point without labor, installation or tuning for CIS to EFI on our 930's

Just as a comparison point, rebuilt fuel head, rebuilt warm up regulator and all new injectors with o-rings can be had for less than 2k for the CIS.

Thanks for the reply
Pros and cons are hard to say without being knowledgable on all available systems. Which would you think you would feel the most comfortable tuning yourself? Since it looks like you will be doing the the work yourself I can only offer you some advice on the unit I have..which is a Motec M84. Motec has a reputable history. Used across many racing brands. Not low in price but not that crazy high either. Units start around $3.5k..

Keep in mind efi only allows you to fine tune your fuel delivery where as cis may have limits when trying to up your power beyond what simple bolt on mods can offer. One can do plenty of fun stuff with cis but if taking full advantage of your mods is attractive then efi would be beneficial.
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Old 10-20-2014, 09:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #132 (permalink)
 
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" Besides money and perceived value loss, what is holding you back from EFI? "

Answer: Time
a. research
b. parts gathering
c. install
d. tune
Old 10-20-2014, 09:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #133 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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It took me 20 hours to install mine. That's not that bad. Did it a couple hours after work for 2 weeks. Never did much on the weekends.

Now, I think if I did it again, I could start Friday night and be driving by Sunday night barring no road blocks.
Old 10-20-2014, 09:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #134 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Now, you can spend 20 hours alone on your MIL spec harness alone like "billjam".

If you search in the 911 forum, he has built a harness that is top notch.

I was fine with simple flex conduit with mine as nearly ALL OEM use this method.
Old 10-20-2014, 09:53 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #135 (permalink)
Happiest when Tinkering
 
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I dont know what all the broo ha ha is all about either you want to not it is as simple as that. I am glad I did it started with megasquirt 1 to get my feet wet from Bitzracing car ran great right out of the box upgraded to MS Extra to get more flexibility and EDIS and it ran great I then upgraded to MS 3 because I want to run E-85 and that is more challenging but with the help of JPNovak I am getting that sorted out and it is starting to run like it did with the other 2 and all I have invested in it including the EDIS is about 2000 dollars and about 2 weeks of tuning time. So the reason I did it was that my CIS parts were getting long in the tooth and I knew they wouldnt do the trick for turbocharging the motor.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:14 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #136 (permalink)
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I will do it

I just don't have the Time right now

C2 turbo owners have another pressing issue ...electrical Black boxes that are NLA and they can go out at any time. I had a EZ-69 go and a relay on the turbo control unit. I replaced the Ez-69 with a crank fire Xdi-2 and used an external relay on the turbo control unit.....just waiting to see what goes next.

one being the Ez-69
disscetion EZ-69

more under the drivers seat .

C2 owners can back date their CIS once the black boxes go or go EFI ...neither is stock.

I will EFI
Old 10-20-2014, 10:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #137 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Quote:
I will do it



I just don't have the Time right now



C2 turbo owners have another pressing issue ...electrical Black boxes that are NLA and they can go out at any time. I had a EZ-69 go and a relay on the turbo control unit. I replaced the Ez-69 with a crank fire Xdi-2 and used an external relay on the turbo control unit.....just waiting to see what goes next.



one being the Ez-69

disscetion EZ-69



more under the drivers seat .



C2 owners can back date their CIS once the black boxes go or go EFI ...neither is stock.



I will EFI
Yep.

I was going to help a friend convert his 965 to MegaSquirt once he saw the cost of the box.
Old 10-20-2014, 10:41 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #138 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Now, you can spend 20 hours alone on your MIL spec harness alone like "billjam".
If you search in the 911 forum, he has built a harness that is top notch.
I was fine with simple flex conduit with mine as nearly ALL OEM use this method.
Mil-spec is also how we build all harnesses at TurboKraft, too: heat/abrasion/chemical-resistant flexible shrink tubing, adhesive-sealed shrink junctures, printed shrink-tube labels, factory and Deutsch connectors, quick-disconnect bulkhead connector, fine-strand lightweight aviation/motorsport wiring, etc. Materials cost just over $1k, and it's very time-intensive at just over 2 days to build a 2-piece chassis+engine harness.
We don't care for the plastic split-loom stuff (sorry Tippy, no offense friend, it looks 1980s-90s GM not German to us!), nor the braided covering (dirt and grime trap).
So just in wiring, you can have a huge difference in price.

Similarly, there's a wide range in prices on ECUs: MS < SDS < AEM < Motec < etc.

That's part of what makes answering the question "how much does EFI cost" so nebulous -- it's like asking "how much does a car cost?" There's no fixed answer, it depends on what you want, your tastes, your expectations of quality.
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Old 10-20-2014, 10:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #139 (permalink)
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I am someone that has (for the moment at least) decided that CIS is good enough for me.
I am collecting parts for a winter project to add BL WUR, wideband AFR and boost monitors, IC, headers, Tial WG, and upgraded turbo (K27HFS). Maybe MSD6AL. I have a nice example of an 88 930 with 60k miles that was bone stock when I bought it nearly a year ago and I have only added a B&B muffler and a Wevo shifter up to now along with basic maintenance items. The project list is basically all bolt ons so it is reversible if I ever sell (no plans for that though). There are multiple reasons why I am not going EFI for this project. The easy ones are cost and complexity. Another concern is reliability. How far can these motors be pushed before other things start breaking? I am hoping for about 375-400HP or so, which will give me a serious boost from where I am and make the car oodles more fun. CIS can do that without issue. If I start going toward the 500HP range, I have to figure that the motor is getting far more stressed and more prone to failure. Of course, it could be perfect for years, or break on day two. Who knows? Then, as power goes up, you start worrying about braking, tires/wheels (wider contact patch), clutch and tranny, suspension upgrades, etc.

So at what point is the $1500-$5000 (depending on who you talk to) EFI upgrade the gateway to required systems enhancements all over the car and then what is the true cost of going to EFI with these upgrades in mind?

How many that have gone EFI have done nothing to their wheels/tires, clutch, suspension, etc. in order to keep the car properly balanced? Very few, if any, I imagine.

By not going EFI, I am admittedly artificially restricting myself to a certain power level increase in an effort to avoid potentially overtaxing the engine and pushing the limits on the rest of the systems on the car, which would substantially increase my budget woes.

Bottom line is that I am looking at the cost vs. fun factor vs. long term reliability and have decided that bolt ons with CIS hits the sweet spot for me. Of course, this decision is very subjective and what works for me doesn't work for others. But it is my car and since I own it, I get to decide what makes me happy. To those that go EFI, I applaud your efforts, because it makes you happy (and it sure is fun to watch!)

That is what I think that what has been glossed over in this thread: the satisfaction/happiness factor. If you need more power to make you happy with the car, then EFI is probably for you and as long as the budget is there, why not? No point in holding back from going EFI if you wouldn't be happy without it. As for me, I still get a smile on my face each and every time I start up my car and each and every time I get on boost. I expect a bigger smile with my proposed upgrades and I don't need to go any further to be a VERY happy 930 owner.

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Old 10-20-2014, 11:20 AM
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