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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
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BTW, Tec3r knock control works great. Have used it on an NA 3.6 and am now in process of using it on my 3.4 Turbo build.

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- 1965 911
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- 1979 930
Old 10-25-2014, 03:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #161 (permalink)
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If I had a SECOND Porsche strictly for racing, and very DEEP pockets, then EFI and a host of other modifications would be on the table.

But as a single street car, no. Having more engine than chassis, the stock turbo is already on that edge. Another 150-200HP, now the rest of the car will have to catch up, and then starts that 'slippery slope', and God only knows where that will end.

I'm already VERY satisfied at the cars level of performance. I guess the question one has to ask, is how much is enough? When you get to 500HP(and used to it), then what?
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1983 911 3.3L Turbo(YES, I know the turbo badge is on the right...had to be different!)
1996 Toyota Corolla(der 'clapper')
Old 10-27-2014, 10:35 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #162 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilikum Turbo View Post
I guess the question one has to ask, is how much is enough? When you get to 500HP(and used to it), then what?
That's a good problem to have!
Kidding aside, it is amazing what you can get used to.
I've driven 600-750whp 911 Turbos for weeks at a time, and it's amazing what you can get used to.
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Old 10-27-2014, 11:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #163 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilikum Turbo View Post
If I had a SECOND Porsche strictly for racing, and very DEEP pockets, then EFI and a host of other modifications would be on the table.

But as a single street car, no. Having more engine than chassis, the stock turbo is already on that edge. Another 150-200HP, now the rest of the car will have to catch up, and then starts that 'slippery slope', and God only knows where that will end.

I'm already VERY satisfied at the cars level of performance. I guess the question one has to ask, is how much is enough? When you get to 500HP(and used to it), then what?
I think these are great points. I'm guessing that I have somewhere around 350 hp and the truth is that it will probably take countless more hours behind the wheel before my driving skills surpass my cars performance.
That said, it's probably a good thing I don't have an opportunity to drive a 700 hp 930 for a few weeks. I'd probably have a hard time getting back in mine.
BTW $ and value loss are the top two reasons for me not converting to EFI
But, I also really appreciate the K Jetronic CIS. Even though it's antiquated and has it's shortcomings I think it's a really cool system.
I can't wait to get a BL WUR so I can dial it in to get the most out of it.
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81 Pacific Blue 930 Euro coupe slicktop on a strict diet, Rarlyl8 headers, Blowzilla turbo, Tial waste gate, Full bay I/C, Home made center out exhaust, Leask WUR, MSD 6AL, PLX wideband
Wevo shifter, LSD. Next up, Cams, Heads and port work
Old 10-27-2014, 11:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #164 (permalink)
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Well, that was an interesting 9 pages.
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Old 11-16-2014, 02:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #165 (permalink)
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The only thing keeping me from EFI is time. just moved all my tools packed away im boxes and will need to build a garage first before I can get back to the car
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88 turbo Guards red Targa slant nose, and yes I am a horsepower junkie, 3.4liter,7.5 to 1 JE pistons, Adjustable WUR, Imagine fuel head, 1 bar waste gate headers,allthe cis toys. Now apart to become the next EFI monster. fabbing my own intake, headers Individual throttle bodies, MS-3, pauter rods, Xtreme twin plugged heads, gt-2 evo cams cop's.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:17 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #166 (permalink)
 
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After rereading this thread, I read a lot of details from DIY'ers that I wanted to thank I didn't catch the first time.

Seems like there are 3 types:

1. CIS is staying. Pass me my gauges and screwdriver!
2. I'm a tinkerer, I'm ok doing it myself for $2-5k and learning to tune on my own. It's not the destination, it's the journey!
3. I want a turnkey, perfectly-tuned, aesthetically OEM installed EFI system 930. I'm going to Turbo Kraft!

A realization is a lot you guys like to run courses, so having big power isn't that much of a need since learning to drive better requires a lot of work alone that extra power would not help with.

I can see where CIS gets the job done just fine.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 11-17-2014, 06:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #167 (permalink)
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I spent 6 years plus reverse engineering the 84-89 Bosch Motronic program and I now have a full understanding of the entire program code and I can say that 1000s of hours went into designing the code by Bosch. I'm amazed at all the items they thought about that many aftermarket EFIs can't do or don't do well or the tuners don't address.

For example:
- 40% of the code is idle control!
- Extensive compensation for ignition based on IAT, you can't tune in the Winter and assume it will be just fine in the Summer. Most common mistake by inexperienced tuners!
- Extensive thought to the design of cold start, the Motronic system adds boat loads of ignition for cold start below 40F. This area alone can be very hard to tune and get correct.
- The list goes on

Not to mention you need a Load dyno to tune part throttle correctly if you don't already have the stock part throttle ign maps you can spend 4 hours or more dyno time just tuning this area! And you better have a tuner that knows the importance of tuning this correctly as throttle response depends on it. This is the one area of improvement over CIS that the EFI gives you, electronic ignition control over all load conditions for the motor. An old school distributor is fine for WOT ignition and a compromise for Part Throttle ignition via the vacuum advance.

Installing the EFI and the cost for the system is only the first step. As someone already pointed out earlier in this thread you can spend a few $1000 installing the system and then go through $10,000 trying to tune it with pro tuners and still not get it correct.

Not saying aftermarket EFI is bad, it certainly is not but you need to know what to expect and it certainly is not cheap to do the entire job CORRECTLY.

I'm very glad I decided to stick with the factory Motronic system and invested the time in learning howto tune what I have. The factory did all the hard work and I did not have to redo this and I learned tons by looking at the factory example first. Since I have first hand knowledge of what went into the factory tune I can now apply what I learned to any aftermarket EFI but I've found that some of these EFI systems can't accommodate some of the factory techniques.
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
1964 356SC (SOLD)
1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible

Last edited by scarceller; 11-18-2014 at 07:33 AM..
Old 11-18-2014, 07:04 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #168 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Sal, every thing you listed, MegaSquirt II has.

I've tuned everything you've mentioned.
Old 11-18-2014, 07:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #169 (permalink)
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Tippy,

Yes MS is a decent system and even though on the low end cost wise you get a lot for the money. But you still have to tune it and having the factory base line ignition tables as you know is extremely helpful. You don't want to start from scratch if possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Sal, every thing you listed, MegaSquirt II has.

I've tuned everything you've mentioned.
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Sal
1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
1964 356SC (SOLD)
1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible
Old 11-18-2014, 07:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #170 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarceller View Post
I spent 6 years plus reverse engineering the 84-89 Bosch Motronic program and I now have a full understanding of the entire program code and I can say that 1000s of hours went into designing the code by Bosch. I'm amazed at all the items they thought about that many aftermarket EFIs can't do or don't do well or the tuners don't address.

For example:
- 40% of the code is idle control!
- Extensive compensation for ignition based on IAT, you can't tune in the Winter and assume it will be just fine in the Summer. Most common mistake by inexperienced tuners!
- Extensive thought to the design of cold start, the Motronic system adds boat loads of ignition for cold start below 40F. This area alone can be very hard to tune and get correct.
- The list goes on

Not to mention you need a Load dyno to tune part throttle correctly if you don't already have the stock part throttle ign maps you can spend 4 hours or more dyno time just tuning this area! And you better have a tuner that knows the importance of tuning this correctly as throttle response depends on it. This is the one area of improvement over CIS that the EFI gives you, electronic ignition control over all load conditions for the motor. An old school distributor is fine for WOT ignition and a compromise for Part Throttle ignition via the vacuum advance.

Installing the EFI and the cost for the system is only the first step. As someone already pointed out earlier in this thread you can spend a few $1000 installing the system and then go through $10,000 trying to tune it with pro tuners and still not get it correct.

Not saying aftermarket EFI is bad, it certainly is not but you need to know what to expect and it certainly is not cheap to do the entire job CORRECTLY.

I'm very glad I decided to stick with the factory Motronic system and invested the time in learning howto tune what I have. The factory did all the hard work and I did not have to redo this and I learned tons by looking at the factory example first. Since I have first hand knowledge of what went into the factory tune I can now apply what I learned to any aftermarket EFI but I've found that some of these EFI systems can't accommodate some of the factory techniques.
Sal you make some very good points, especially about the cold start and winter/summer set up.
Are you a tuner of efi system and if so what system? Also do you offer your services on a dyno...just curious as you seem to have some in depth knowledge.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #171 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Sal, here are some fine tuning adjustments MegaSquirt can make (I'm sure I will miss some.....):

1. Injector dead time (time injector is not spraying as the pintle is opening/closing)
2. Battery dwell curve (injectors are faster or slower to battery voltage)
3. Smoothing factor for MAP/RPM/TPS/CLT/Battery inputs
4. MAP sampling angle of crankshaft
5. Priming pulse (ms of injector opening to bleed injector rails of air)
6. Cranking pulse (ms of injector opening during cranking)
7. Afterstart enrichment and taper (additional fuel over warm up enrichment base fuel curve)
8. Idle control curve (adjust idle valve opening by engine temp)
9. PWM idle cranking duty curve (opens idle valve larger during cold starts for easier starting)
10. Warmup enrichment curve (basic additional fuel curve over base fuel table)
11. Barometric correction curve (adjusts to maintain AFR's with different baro's)
12. Cold advance for timing curve (adds timing for really cold starts)
13. Manifold Air Temp timing based retard (turbo gets too hot, starts cutting timing)
14. Flex Fuel fuel table blending with E85 and E10 (stoichiometric is vastly different for E85 vs pure gas)
15. Idle advance settings (lots of "if" variables/algorithm to go base idle timing in situations)

I have every one of these addressed except E85.

As you can see, this is MegaSquirt II. MS III has additional fine tuning curves/tables to adjust for great AFR's in a lot of different RPM/load ranges along with lots of idle options to get the engine running and stay running in cold conditions.

Now, MS II has tons of other features like:

1. Staged fuel injection (2 sets of injectors)
2. NOS inputs
3. Antilag (I use this)
4. 2-step rev limiter
5. Launch control
6. Etc.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel

Last edited by Tippy; 11-18-2014 at 09:14 AM..
Old 11-18-2014, 09:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #172 (permalink)
 
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I am likely going to change my SC turbo to Megasquirt II, maybe next year. I have found over the years that it is not so simple to effectively double the HP output of a N/A system by simply trying to imitate a 930 setup, although I almost have it figured out.

Fundamantally, there are really no differences in the K-Jet and the more advanced electronic systems. It seems to me that the CIS is a bit more stone age with regard to tuning. The Bosch engineers built the CIS system to get away from carbs, which allowed more easy compliance to environmental regulations. However, the K-Jetronic is both technically advanced for something designed over 40 years ago, and elegant in its simplicity from a tuning standpoint.

The main differences in between CIS and any of the other systems are simple to see:
All of the modern tuning parameters were BUILT IN to the hardware of the CIS system. For instance, the shape of the air cone matters, as I believe that is what provides the idle and enrichment characteristic of the particular setup. This is done by some sort of tuning tweaks in the EFI systems. It is theoretically much easier to change parameters in an EFI system than in a K-Jetronic system. There are some interesting and comprehensive discussions on this board regarding this topic. Relationships between the WUR and FD seem simple, because the factory MATCHED these characteristics for each particular engine setup type.

I suppose when you have a CIS system, and get the car shaken out fairly well, there is absolutely no need to go any further. If you want to continue to tinker and try and wring out that last 3 HP, go ahead. There is always going to be the CIS camp and the EFI camp.
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Old 11-18-2014, 09:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #173 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patkeefe View Post
I am likely going to change my SC turbo to Megasquirt II, maybe next year. I have found over the years that it is not so simple to effectively double the HP output of a N/A system by simply trying to imitate a 930 setup, although I almost have it figured out.

Fundamantally, there are really no differences in the K-Jet and the more advanced electronic systems. It seems to me that the CIS is a bit more stone age with regard to tuning. The Bosch engineers built the CIS system to get away from carbs, which allowed more easy compliance to environmental regulations. However, the K-Jetronic is both technically advanced for something designed over 40 years ago, and elegant in its simplicity from a tuning standpoint.

The main differences in between CIS and any of the other systems are simple to see:
All of the modern tuning parameters were BUILT IN to the hardware of the CIS system. For instance, the shape of the air cone matters, as I believe that is what provides the idle and enrichment characteristic of the particular setup. This is done by some sort of tuning tweaks in the EFI systems. It is theoretically much easier to change parameters in an EFI system than in a K-Jetronic system. There are some interesting and comprehensive discussions on this board regarding this topic. Relationships between the WUR and FD seem simple, because the factory MATCHED these characteristics for each particular engine setup type.

I suppose when you have a CIS system, and get the car shaken out fairly well, there is absolutely no need to go any further. If you want to continue to tinker and try and wring out that last 3 HP, go ahead. There is always going to be the CIS camp and the EFI camp.
All your points on fueling are correct that CIS vs EFI fueling really isn't that different. But ignition is very diffrent between the 2 systems. In EFI you have complete control of ignition setting down to 0.7deg or even better and across the entire RPM range and the entire load range. Then you also have the ability to alter ignition based on other factors like Intake Air Temp and Cyl Head Temp. It's this area of EFI that really stands out when compared to an old school distributor.

Here's a sample Part Throttle ignition table from a 3.2L car:

The rows are injector pulse width in Milliseconds and notice that at very light loads it's running better than 50 degrees advance, you can't set things like this with an old school distributor.
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
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1964 356SC (SOLD)
1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible
Old 11-18-2014, 10:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #174 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speednme1 View Post
Sal you make some very good points, especially about the cold start and winter/summer set up.
Are you a tuner of efi system and if so what system? Also do you offer your services on a dyno...just curious as you seem to have some in depth knowledge.
I don't do this for a living but just as a hobby and I'm most lucky to have contact with a few real well respected tuners. If you want to learn buy both books written by Greg Banish best books I've seen that explain the principles of EFI in easy to read detail. Just look him up on Amazon and you'll find his books. I don't know him personally but I have exchanged emails with questions with him over the years. Pay very close attention to what he says about MAF and how it's the very best system for any setup since it is the most accurate way to fuel an engine. Buy the very best MAF that comes with a flow sheet for the exact MAF, you can't fuel an engine properly unless you can measure or estimate the air flow very accurately.
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1984 911 Carrera Cab M491 (Factory Wide Body)
1975 911S Targa (SOLD)
1964 356SC (SOLD)
1987 Ford Mustang LX 5.0 Convertible
Old 11-18-2014, 10:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #175 (permalink)
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Sal, very good input. I think you have hit upon the real benefit of EFI...the ignition. I have just got the SC going again, with the J&S Safeguard wired in. I may have had a detonation issue in my old configuration, and wanted to avoid that. But the ignition system is a big key to performance gain when you can optimize the spark and timing.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #176 (permalink)
Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Yes, I run around 48* timing at 3K RPM and light loads.

Makes high 20's MPG's on the highway with 80lb injectors.
Old 11-18-2014, 01:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #177 (permalink)
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Just a couple of points:

Megasquirt 2 cannot do 6 cylinders of sequential injection without a goofy add-on board. Sequential injection is a very nice to have on an air-cooled, 2 valve engine. Much better, and lower idle. Megasquirt 3X is the 6 cylinder sequential system.

Where is the thingy on CIS that shuts the fuel off when you are coasting at closed throttle. OH, there isn't one.

There are very few new gasoline vehicles running with MAF only. The range of airflow is too difficult to measure with just one sensor. This is especially true of a turbo motor, which acts like a small engine at idle, and a large one at WOT. It is common to use a MAF to control idle and part throttle only, and switch to speed/density at large throttle/boost. The speed/density measurement has become quite accurate when throttle adaption, and VE learning from the WRO2 are factored in.

But who cares about that. You are not trying to achieve PZEV emissions. Your job is to ***** slap brand new Audis. Pick up an import tuner mag. You will see 20 year old kids with Civics dialed in with sequential injection, mega-boost, and NOS, and they didn't spend 10K doing it. I was 20 years old once. About 95% of your brain is devoted to sex, 2% food, 1% studies. If they can pull that off with the remaining 2% of their brain, just imagine what you can do!

Last edited by Speedy Squirrel; 11-18-2014 at 11:26 PM..
Old 11-18-2014, 11:24 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #178 (permalink)
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I know SDS EFI is not state of the art, but it's bullet proofed. Simple enough to get good results, but complex enough to tune for all conditions. The main reason for me to choose SDS was good support technically and tuning and mainly the possibility to tune on the road. I think this is the biggest advantage to other (DIY) systems, I can tune under real conditions. Of course, dyno tuning is possible as well. Even factories do their fine tuning under real conditions.

Concerning sequential I have talked to several expirienced people and it showed, that you can get 100% of possible performance/optimum with sequential injection, but only loose a few percents without, mainly regarding fuel economy.

However, nice thread
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930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list
Old 11-19-2014, 02:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #179 (permalink)
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That's correct. Sequential injection does not increase power. Under WOT/high rpm conditions, the injector pulse width time will be longer than the the time to complete one rev, so start of injection timing becomes meaningless.

At idle though, you can inject on a closed intake valve and get a real nice idle.

Old 11-19-2014, 03:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #180 (permalink)
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