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suspension reworking thoughts

The body of an email I fired to Clint at Rebel minus the hugs and kisses, thought I would poll the masses for insights and other questions I should have answers to. Finally getting around to installing the new ER Camber plates and KONI's that have been migrating through my home and have realized they may or may not be the best match for my setup.

I have a 1982 930 which has had some suspension work but is largely a mismatch of aftermarket and stock components and I would like to start getting a cohesive plan together. I have not tracked the car but do enjoy the stiffer suspension the car currently has and would like to work with what I have if you feel it is feasible.

The car as follows: 1982 930 3.3 CSI 375-400whp
Front suspension: 23mm torsion bars, ER Quick Change camber plates, RebelRacing front bushing set, stock bilstein struts, stock sway bar
Rear suspension: 33mm torsion bars, stock bilstein sport, stock sway bar, stock bushings

The car is lowered and has rack spacers, I have a pair of new ext adjustable KONI 8210 1159sports that I was going to install but thought I should get your input before doing so in case your thoughts include re-valving front or rear shocks to get a balanced setup. If coil suspension presented a better value I wouldn't be against this either as the car is not stock.

Looking forward to your thoughts, I can best be reached here if and when you have additional questions.

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Old 10-29-2014, 11:40 AM
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Clint is a real good dude. I have his stuff in my project car but haven't run the car yet.

I did coil-overs in my buddy 87 Carerra and it was night and day, very smooth even running mono ball and RSR bushing on the STREET.
Old 10-29-2014, 11:47 AM
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Hello Sly,

You note that your car is lowered a lot, pictures tell it all so.....come on show us!

It sounds like you have a real good start for a balanced system, you just don't have it all yet.

The good, T bars are good, the Rebel Racing front bushings good, front camber plates good.

The bad, stock sways, sway mounts, stock sway bushings bad, stock Bilstiens frt. & rear bad, koni's ???unknown, stock rear spring plate bushings.

Get 22mm front & rear adjustable sways, get WEVO rear sway bar mounts, get Von frt. inserts & Von rear shocks valved to match your T bars, get front strut tower brace, get a proper bump steer kit {NOT RACK SPACERS}, get Rebel racing rear spring plate bushing kit, get it corner balanced & aligned, get brake pads that match your driving style. Now if your car is truly real low, also get your front spindles raised 20-30-40mm which ever matches your preferred ride height.

Now you have a balanced system.

My .02 worth.

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 10-29-2014 at 05:58 PM..
Old 10-29-2014, 05:55 PM
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I reached out to Clint @ RSR. He set me up with their full RSR suspension front and rear. In addition, they sent me the 935 front end as well. The ride control and stability is really impressive. I would say the change is transformitive in nature. I think the ride is firm but not overly harsh. I really like my setup.

IF I could offer any advice from my experience - just go with a linear spring that you want to run. Don't bother with a linear spring and helper to create a dual rate. I found it to be vague. I ended up swapping out for just linear main springs and enjoy the ride a lot more. Overall - I 100% do the full coilover setup again. This setup is easy to dial in once everything is set up. My shop who did the alignment and corner balance noted the setup was much easier to work with as well.

Best of luck!

Chris.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:15 PM
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Thanks gentlemen, exactly what Im looking for. I don't believe any of the rubber components have ever been touched and I'm thinking it's about time to tighten things up. Mark, the car as it currently sits.

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Old 10-29-2014, 08:22 PM
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Looks like its lowered way too much. Doesnt matter what parts you have if the setup is bad. Stop throwing parts at it until you get it set up by someone who knows what they're doing.
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Old 10-29-2014, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dos531 View Post
Looks like its lowered way too much. Doesnt matter what parts you have if the setup is bad. Stop throwing parts at it until you get it set up by someone who knows what they're doing.
I didn't ask if you thought it was too low and have a pretty good idea what I'm doing but thanks for the condescending ass wipe input.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:16 PM
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I'm sorry if I came off like an ass. The fact is it looks like you already have a pretty good set of parts, but it is pretty clear that the way it is setup is far from optimal for handling. You would have much better bang for your buck by having someone knowledgeable set it up. Have you had it aligned and corner balanced at a shop that is familiar with these cars? My car has a pretty similar suspension upgrades and it handles beautifully.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dos531 View Post
I'm sorry if I came off like an ass. The fact is it looks like you already have a pretty good set of parts, but it is pretty clear that the way it is setup is far from optimal for handling. You would have much better bang for your buck by having someone knowledgeable set it up. Have you had it aligned and corner balanced at a shop that is familiar with these cars? My car has a pretty similar suspension upgrades and it handles beautifully.
Friend,
If you're coming off like an ass there are surely many explanations but you still sound like an ass. I'm going to guess you personally do not turn wrenches for yourself with any level of competence and through limited deduction assume therefore it is not possible for others to do so. Reading comprehension also a little lacking here, if you re-examine the original post (a copy sent to a suspension specialist) you see that I am well aware the setup is incomplete and what I am looking for is real information regarding parts compatibility. I am not looking for an opinion on whether or not I should do it myself or where you think my money is best spent, you want to pay someone to work on your car great glad it's running well. I suspect you are not at all qualified to participate in this dialog as only an idiot would suggest have a car aligned and corner balanced before a new sorted suspension was assembled which is exactly why I have initiated this thread. Unfortunately I cannot control who says what and where on an open forum, you can however, please have the courtesy to delete your comments and unsubscribe my thread.
Regards
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Old 10-29-2014, 10:55 PM
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On my WCMA car, I am running 23mm up front, 30mm in the back (not a turbo), Weltmeisster sway bars, billstein heavy dutys on all 4 corners, and I have raised spindles in the front and a dropped rack.

My car was initially professionally set up (alignment) when I went to the bigger to torsion bars. It works and this is primarily a track car.

Your car does look lower than mine.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:10 AM
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Hello Sly,
I like low cars, yours looks good to me, with one exception in that for best weight transfer and such, it is generally best to have a little rake to your cars setup. 1.5 degrees down angle on the front works splendid.

With your car that low {very close to my ride height by the way, I'm at 2-3/4" clearance at the front valance base}, you will benefit greatly by getting your front spindles raised 40 mm by ERP, raising the front spindles also brings your shock travel back to the middle and brings the suspension geometry back into specifications, additionally Von rear shocks are shorter than stock, so that their travel is closer to being in the middle as well.

Clint will send you down this similar road as well. As for coil overs, there has been much opinion about which is best, but I think the general consensus is that coil over conversions work out the best when you are tracking the car and need to make adjustments for different tracks, for the street it is hard to justify the added cost with the extra weld in rear reinforcement that should be done with coil over installations.

My .o2 worth {maybe with inflation it's worth .05 now?}

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 10-30-2014 at 08:14 AM..
Old 10-30-2014, 05:59 AM
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Hey slyguy,
I have a complete suspension re-work setup form Clint. However I went with coilovers throughout and removed the torsion bars. So much easier to raise and lower the car.

My only suggestion is the adjustable spring plates at the rear. I apologize if I mis-read, but those really help on set-up. I went with Clint's monoball and spherical bearing replacements on both the front and rear. I wish I could tell you how it rides and handles, but its a project car - so still working on it.

good luck - looks like you are on the right path
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:14 AM
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Thanks gents, I think there's some consistency here for sure. The adjustability of the coil overs is very appealing although I wouldn't be under the car making a ton of changes once it's set up. The raised spindles are a no brainer at this level as are the short body shocks (the KONI rears I have are also short body but still waiting on input from rebel)
Mark, I am a little higher at 5 3/4 to the front valence, 24 3/4 to the front fender lip and 23 7/8 to the rear. 3 inches wow. got a photo?
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:20 PM
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Hello Sly,

Check out the thread on page #3 titled "How low is too low?", there you will see some pretty low cars, including mine.

To be honest, since your car is sitting at a rear down attitude, your front will be higher, plus with all things being equal, I think your aftermarket front valance sits higher off the ground than would a stock front valance with bottom rubber lip. So that all adds up to your 5-3/4" dimension. Get your car at a 1.5 degree rake and yours will drop down a lot in the front.

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 10-30-2014 at 12:41 PM..
Old 10-30-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by full quack View Post
Hello Sly,

Check out the thread on page #3 titled "How low is too low?", there you will see some pretty low cars, including mine.

To be honest, since your car is sitting at a rear down attitude, your front will be higher, plus with all things being equal, I think your aftermarket front valance sits higher off the ground than would a stock front valance with bottom rubber lip. So that all adds up to your 5-3/4" dimension. Get your car at a 1.5 degree rake and yours will drop down a lot in the front.

Mark
Looks sharp Mark. I remember the rubber lip being pretty low even at the stock height. Definitely the type of package I'm heading for thanks for the feedback
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:49 PM
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Friend,
If you're coming off like an ass there are surely many explanations but you still sound like an ass. I'm going to guess you personally do not turn wrenches for yourself with any level of competence and through limited deduction assume therefore it is not possible for others to do so. Reading comprehension also a little lacking here, if you re-examine the original post (a copy sent to a suspension specialist) you see that I am well aware the setup is incomplete and what I am looking for is real information regarding parts compatibility. I am not looking for an opinion on whether or not I should do it myself or where you think my money is best spent, you want to pay someone to work on your car great glad it's running well. I suspect you are not at all qualified to participate in this dialog as only an idiot would suggest have a car aligned and corner balanced before a new sorted suspension was assembled which is exactly why I have initiated this thread. Unfortunately I cannot control who says what and where on an open forum, you can however, please have the courtesy to delete your comments and unsubscribe my thread.
Regards
Sly,

This is a little harsh to 531 don't you think? The dude tried to make nice and you continue to rage on him - not a smooth way of making friends or receiving advice. Like 531, I also like the look of your car but wonder if it's too low with either neutral or negative rake. I can't imagine that there is that much travel left in the suspension at that level although it looks damn cool. It might be just the picture but is the front fender lip rubbing the tire because the white paint looks a little irregular?

I just did most if not all of what you are talking to Clint about: Raised front spindles, RSR front bushings, coilovers front and rear, revalved front struts, new matched threaded rear Bilstein shocks, RSR bump steer kit, and 935 type rear spring plates. My car is set around Euro height (higher than yours) and spent about 4.5 hours on the alignment rack. The thing that we ran into was too much negative camber in the rear (-1.9 degrees) that got worse when the car was lowered more. To paraphrase Clint's explanation, the coilovers exacerbate the excess negative camber and you can work around it to some degree by replacing the camber eccentric bolt with a smaller 8mm bolt that allows the spring plates more excursion.

In the end, I'm happy with the result and my car works for all the speedbumps and crappy roads because I'll need the travel and the clearance. If you really like your car that low, you might wind up with -3 degrees of camber when you're done. Race car alignment on the street which means possible tramlining and short inside tire wear. We were aiming for -1 degree but I think -1.9 degrees will be fine.

Best of luck to you,

Tonger
Old 10-30-2014, 04:49 PM
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Hello all,

Yes, it is true one cannot have it all. if you want optimal handling then you need good bump compliance, proper rebound and compression valving in your shocks and of course reasonable stop-to-stop turning without undue rubbing or binding, and the right spring rate for your style of driving and road conditions.

Yes, to be low means you get more negative camber than one would ideally like to have on the street, and yes it does affect your rear tire life. My cars alignment takes under 1 hour. I end up with 2 degrees negative rear camber, neutral front camber. Rear tire life is 10K, front tire life is 17-20K. I'm running 17 x 8.5 fronts w/255's and 18 x 11 rears w/295's, works for me.

What one needs to determine, is to be painfully honest with your own driving abilities and how and where you drive the car, and NOT how you dream/wish you could drive the car.

Next you need to decide exactly what you want out of the car. Perfect looks? Optimal handling? Ride & comfort? Everyday livability? Or weekend racer?

The truth is you CANNOT have it all, you must pick 1,maybe 1-1/2. Every choice is a compromise in one aspect or another, so make your choice!

I picked as good handling as I could get with the best looks, my 1-1/2 choice. I compromised comfort for handling, and ground clearance for looks.

My car is at 2700 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas, no A/C, no back seat, no spare tire or jack, no inner DOT door bars, no interior underlayment, no 5 mph bumper shocks, etc, etc.

It's light, fast and handles like nothing else I've ever driven. Sure there are better handling cars out there but they are NOT a 930. These things are in a league all by themselves.

Now it's time for me to get off my soap box and shut up.

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 10-30-2014 at 06:00 PM..
Old 10-30-2014, 05:50 PM
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To get this thread back on track. I have Clint's coilover's in my car after a torsion bar set-up that was somewhat similar to slyguy. I installed these two summers ago and cannot recommend them enough.

Personally, I do not think that coilovers are for cars that are tracked. I have never tracked my car and do not intend to do so, on the street my car feels great and very progressive in how it handles and rides, it also feels more progressive akin to much newer sports cars.

Some quick pics:






I hope that helps.

Regards,
Yasin
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Old 10-30-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by slow&rusty View Post
To get this thread back on track. I have Clint's coilover's in my car after a torsion bar set-up that was somewhat similar to slyguy. I installed these two summers ago and cannot recommend them enough.

Personally, I do not think that coilovers are for cars that are tracked. I have never tracked my car and do not intend to do so, on the street my car feels great and very progressive in how it handles and rides, it also feels more progressive akin to much newer sports cars.
All good input gentlemen. Mark, I too will be looking for the handling first and what that offers for appearance second, the car is already to loud and fast for the general population to be comfortable. Tire wear is something that has to accepted, as you say just can't have it all.

Yasin, I have followed your cars progress and love the look you've put together. Car looks great and you bring up a valid point with the 'modern' feel of a coil over suspension. I've never had a chance to drive anything but the TB cars but have always been intrigued by the coil over potential. Did you reinforce the rear shock towers? Are those stock camber plates up front? Cheers
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Old 10-31-2014, 07:30 AM
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I really liked the 1159/1039 Sport pair from Koni.

They work well with big torsion bars. Your total suspension travel will be limited since the car is setup so stiff. IMO, the compression (jounce) damping is softer than Bilstein and works well when you want to maximize travel of big torsion bars. Plus, you can adjust the rebound damping high enough to control them from springing back too quickly.

I do not think you will be happy with Koni/Bilstein combination. The difference in damping is significant.

Personally, I think the car is setup really stiff - especially up front. I have driven cars like this and they fill "skittery" on all but the smoothest surfaces. There is just not enough suspension compliance in the front end to maintain proper tire contact. The (what appear to be) 17" wheels and low profile side walls magnify this sensation.

I guess it depends on your overall usage.

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Old 10-31-2014, 09:46 AM
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