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beancounter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spitz View Post
It's the early Gen Y and late Gen X demographic, i.e. Magnus Walker followers, who have made a significant contribution to the rise in prices of these cars.
GMAFB...Magnus Walker followers? Ummmm...for the record, most of us here bought 930s before Magnus took a shine to them. And if you follow the market, you should know that the bone stock original cars (not Magnus or R Gruppe "specials") are appreciating to the highest levels, and a rising tide lifts all boats. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate Mr. Walker's cars, but he's not doing anything that hasn't been done before. No matter their generation, the people who are paying top dollar for the pristine low mile bone stock 930s are not thinking "I am going to be like Magnus Walker" as they write out the 6 figure check.

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Last edited by jwasbury; 11-06-2014 at 08:06 PM..
Old 11-06-2014, 07:56 PM
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If you guys don't think the market is going to settle out you may be surprised. This same thing happened in the 80's and prices spiked and then dropped. I purchased a beautiful 79 911SC in 83 for $15k and I drove it for 79k miles sold it for $21K in 86 and they then proceeded to drop like lead balloons. Everyone thought the market would continue to increase and many took a huge bath.

Just like the muscle car craze of a few years back the right cars will continue to increase or level off but there are many cars that people have overpaid for that will drop or will require significant investment to maintain their purchase price.

The generation that are buying these cars are raising children that have no interest in them and there are a lot of these cars out there. Unlike the vintage Ferrari's which are essentially one of a kind works of hand built art there are so few that the ultra wealthy can spend 10's of millions on. The market will narrow for all the air cooled cars and only the crem dela crem will be worth buying in the end.

I wouldn't take all this too seriously these cars are finally being recognized but it would appear the average buyer has little clue to what he is investing in and eventually people will wise up. Buy it and enjoy it but don't think of it as an investment.

Just my .02 worth
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bmwtmx View Post
It's been fun and like any good relationship that ends you need to say good-bye to the friends you made along the way! I will be dedicating my time to my 996TT which I hope to track more often now that I have the time and space free.

I see another 930 in my future but I just don't believe the prices on these cars is sustainable. If they drop back to sane levels I'll do it again.

If you sold for $95000 that is a strong indicator of just how much interest the 930 has gained over the years. Mind you this is a 1986 car not a 76,77,78,79. Could you disclose the actual sale price, miles, ect so I can post on the Notable Recent Sales thread?
Old 11-07-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cobalt View Post
If you guys don't think the market is going to settle out you may be surprised. This same thing happened in the 80's and prices spiked and then dropped. I purchased a beautiful 79 911SC in 83 for $15k and I drove it for 79k miles sold it for $21K in 86 and they then proceeded to drop like lead balloons. Everyone thought the market would continue to increase and many took a huge bath.

Just like the muscle car craze of a few years back the right cars will continue to increase or level off but there are many cars that people have overpaid for that will drop or will require significant investment to maintain their purchase price.

The generation that are buying these cars are raising children that have no interest in them and there are a lot of these cars out there. Unlike the vintage Ferrari's which are essentially one of a kind works of hand built art there are so few that the ultra wealthy can spend 10's of millions on. The market will narrow for all the air cooled cars and only the crem dela crem will be worth buying in the end.

I wouldn't take all this too seriously these cars are finally being recognized but it would appear the average buyer has little clue to what he is investing in and eventually people will wise up. Buy it and enjoy it but don't think of it as an investment.

Just my .02 worth
American muscle cars (excl. ultra rare ones) are not 930īs and 930īare not vintage Ferraris.
They hold different positions in the market and are priced accordingly.

There is still a looooong way from a 150K usd 930 to a 60 Mill. USD pontoon fender testarossa..........they are not in the same league and they will never be.

But there is also a long way from current prices of early 930īs to the current prices of a 2.7 rs or any semi special 356.
My claim is that there is no obvious reason for that price difference.
They are not that much rarer and no more iconic than an early 930.
Yet, they have commanded very high prices for years, and are still on the up, and no one seems to question that....why is that?

Of course, if we are talking about general trends in the classic car market I can understand the arguement about very (maybe too) high prices.

IMO the 930 is just moving, from an extreme low position, to where it should be in the market. (compared to other similar offerings)

But it seems to me, that there is still some insisting on talking the 930 down in the market......especially in the US.
In the mean time they will just end up in Europe or elsewhere.
......I donīt understand the point!

And I think it is way too excessive to just write off an entire generation as completely uninterested in classic cars.
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Old 11-07-2014, 07:40 AM
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Quote:

Quote de clutch-monkey



how young are you talking? i'm talking the iphone generation who are barely interested in getting their driver's license.

OK :-)

Yes, the smartphone generation appears to be a little lost.

They may come around when they grow older.

But I also suspect that most of them will never aquire the skills necessary to keep and maintain a classic car.......even if they wanted to.



An old school firebreathing sport car will still attract a lot of attention from the youngsters.

It just seems even more exotic to them.



And you can still run into a young true petrolhead once in a while.
I recently turned 30. I've been working on German and British cars since I was 10 years old. Cut my teeth on 90s BMWs then dove into MGs, Big Healeys, Jensen Healey, and a Lotus. Recently bought two 911s to restore. Guys my age don't care about anything older than 2000. Then there is the rich rednecks in my area throwing big money at Jeeps and Diesel Trucks.
Old 11-07-2014, 07:45 AM
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interesting comments.

I picked up a non-running '78 930 clone almost a year ago. started to work on it a bit but returned my focus to finishing the build of my 86 951 DE/street car.

my contribution to this discussion is around my plan to sell my 85 911 Targa. I see the prices for these cars on the rise too and glad for it. glad they are all getting more of the respect they deserve. turbo or NA, they are just incredible cars.

but now have too many and eventually want to do a full job on the 930. the 911 was my first Porsche, and probably would not consider selling if I had not picked up the 930.

for now I mostly lurk on this forum reading and learning so I'll have a better perspective when I do dive into the 930
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Old 11-07-2014, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cover View Post
American muscle cars (excl. ultra rare ones) are not 930īs and 930īare not vintage Ferraris.
They hold different positions in the market and are priced accordingly.

There is still a looooong way from a 150K usd 930 to a 60 Mill. USD pontoon fender testarossa..........they are not in the same league and they will never be.

But there is also a long way from current prices of early 930īs to the current prices of a 2.7 rs or any semi special 356.
My claim is that there is no obvious reason for that price difference.
They are not that much rarer and no more iconic than an early 930.
Yet, they have commanded very high prices for years, and are still on the up, and no one seems to question that....why is that?

Of course, if we are talking about general trends in the classic car market I can understand the arguement about very (maybe too) high prices.

IMO the 930 is just moving, from an extreme low position, to where it should be in the market. (compared to other similar offerings)

But it seems to me, that there is still some insisting on talking the 930 down in the market......especially in the US.
In the mean time they will just end up in Europe or elsewhere.
......I donīt understand the point!

And I think it is way too excessive to just write off an entire generation as completely uninterested in classic cars.
Collectables are collectables they don't have to be the same item and price is all relative. The motivation is still the same.

I'm not talking the 930 down by any means. I have seen this cycle happen over and over and I have no doubt the 930 will continue to climb along with the rest of the air cooled 911's. Only the economy will dictate where this all leads. There is so much to take into consideration. Just like the dilemma over why people especially Europeans are overpaying for the US version of the 964 known as the RSA vs a stock C2. I understand the $300K+ selling prices of the ROW 964 RS but the RSA??

My point was that people are going crazy overspending in some cases. I watch as many piss poor condition nothing special air cooled cars are being cobbled back together and sold as original and it is happening far more often than many realize. Speedos changed out or turned back to show them having less mileage than they do. I also see some seriously damaged rare cars being repaired to cover up the damage and it would take even the best experts to determine if the car had been in an accident or not. When they sell as all original accident free for 20-30% premium eventually someone will figure out they are damaged goods and these cars will be priced accordingly.

I am saying that not all of these cars warrant the prices they are getting the market is still somewhat narrow and in time as the generations change the market will more than likely become even more narrow. Those interested will want only the rarest or best out there and the rest will be worth far less.

I had someone at a show offer me $145k for my 94 and I just laughed. He said he was in the market and a friend just purchased one for that amount so that was all they were worth. I knew the car he was talking about I know 70% of them over the years and knowing its history the guy overpaid. I wouldn't take a penny less than $250k for mine but I have seen 3000 mile examples of the 94 that are not as nice or as clean as mine sell for more. Just because the 930's are seeing a huge increase in value doesn't make everyone worth the same amount. I think some of these fine examples are being sold far too early and will be worth considerably more soon, others are selling for far too much considering condition and history. Eventually the market will catch up and the buyers/speculators will become more educated to what is worth top $$ and what is not.
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Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 11-08-2014, 06:45 AM
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^^^^
Maybe I misinterpreted your previous post.
I actually agree with what you are saying ;-)
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:17 AM
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Frankly, I'll be happy if the market tanks.

I sold my '72 coupe, thinking I'd just pick up another when I had the garage space. Then the market got hot. So I've learned that I'm never again going to sell a car I love, and there are still so many that I want. The market tanking would really help speed that along.

Of course, I also think a lot of the talk about the market dropping is done by guys who missed out on the chance to buy some incredible cars cheaply, and long for a second chance.
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Old 11-08-2014, 11:32 AM
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The 930 was too cheap for too long. That simple. This is long overdue and we are just at the beginning.
Old 11-08-2014, 05:35 PM
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Another point is that the 930 is probably the single most important car they ever produced. In the past few years Porsche has acknowledged this hence all the PR about the 930 putting Ferrys 930 front and center.
Old 11-08-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Komenda Fan View Post
Frankly, I'll be happy if the market tanks.

I sold my '72 coupe, thinking I'd just pick up another when I had the garage space. Then the market got hot. So I've learned that I'm never again going to sell a car I love, and there are still so many that I want. The market tanking would really help speed that along.

Of course, I also think a lot of the talk about the market dropping is done by guys who missed out on the chance to buy some incredible cars cheaply, and long for a second chance.
I have had the same realization. I have been going through interesting cars and buying a 911 for sanity between them. I have been doing this for over 25 years. I would try a 1973 Citroen SM, sell, then get my sanity back with a 78 911SC, sell it and try a 1975 Jensen Healey, Frustrated I would buy another 911, then try a 1970 BB Corvette, sell it after I got tired of truck driving and brought a 911 67S, The constant was how good 911's were and you could always pick one up easily, they were plentiful and relatively cheap. I sold my 67S for 47.5K and there was as much talk in 2007 that this was a bubble and the when housing popped the 911 market would also, so I sold for what common wisdom believed was high expecting to buy again when early S were around 20K.
So I learned my lesson, I got lucky and found another SWB S and I have a 78 930 and I will not let those go with the dream of a market crash and easy buy again.
I like 911's to much to be with out one.
Old 11-09-2014, 04:07 AM
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I think the market now is either overpriced or overplayed. Why do 2 nearly identical 930's with the same mileage, full owner history, no paintwork, all stock, get advertised for $110k in 1 high end shop and $190k in another? I called a couple of dealers who had cars with similar miles as my car and similar condition and they offered me less than HALF what they were selling theirs for. I was told my car wasn't worth $60k at one dealer who has one for $140k. Personally, I think this is a dealer driven market with a handful of dealers saying what they are worth. I got what I think my car is worth (and it was 6 figures) but I wouldn't go out and spend what these dealers are asking. And after talking to a few of them I hope they choke on their inventory with their insulting arrogant attitudes. They are used car salesmen. Nothing else.
Old 11-09-2014, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bmwtmx View Post
I think the market now is either overpriced or overplayed. Why do 2 nearly identical 930's with the same mileage, full owner history, no paintwork, all stock, get advertised for $110k in 1 high end shop and $190k in another? I called a couple of dealers who had cars with similar miles as my car and similar condition and they offered me less than HALF what they were selling theirs for. I was told my car wasn't worth $60k at one dealer who has one for $140k. Personally, I think this is a dealer driven market with a handful of dealers saying what they are worth. I got what I think my car is worth (and it was 6 figures) but I wouldn't go out and spend what these dealers are asking. And after talking to a few of them I hope they choke on their inventory with their insulting arrogant attitudes. They are used car salesmen. Nothing else.
Bottom line is that there is a growing demand and a limited supply.

Of course dealers (and most privates) will try and buy cheap and sell high.

The 930 has not settled yet, so naturally prices are all over the place.
But still, the general trend is fast rising prices.

Personally I can not see any reasons why the 930 shouldnīt end up somewhere in the same neighbourhood as early 911 S cars and even 2.7 rs cars.

The fact that they are now being targeted for full blown, top-dollar restorations points in that direction.

In the mean time, there is a lot of shady deals out there, while some duce bags try to
sell rust as gold.
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Old 11-09-2014, 05:58 AM
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Once again the 930 was taken for granted for too long.
Old 11-09-2014, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficke View Post
I would try a 1973 Citroen SM
You have to admit when they ran right they were very cool cars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ficke View Post
So I learned my lesson, I got lucky and found another SWB S and I have a 78 930 and I will not let those go with the dream of a market crash and easy buy again.
I like 911's to much to be with out one.
The SWB cars have gone crazy. A friend purchased one about 6 years ago for $7k it was a complete rust bucket needing too much to restore so he scrapped it out.

I have seen similar car sell for 10 X's that now heading for complete restorations. Like the GTO Judge my friend scrapped back in 1983 when he couldn't give it away for $100.

I agree if you purchased a solid car at a reasonable price hold onto them and enjoy them even if the market does drop it will never drop down to where it was before. If the economy gets that bad we will have bigger problems to worry about than the value of our cars.

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Gone worth mentioning '71 E '79 SC, '79 built to '74 3.0 RS tribute (2390 # 270 hp), '80 928 euro 5 speed, '74 2.0l 914, '89 944 S2,'04 Cayenne TT '14 boxster, '14 Cayenne GTS many others
Old 11-10-2014, 04:39 AM
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