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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Fuel System Readings On Boost -Video

I've been wanting to take a video of my gages when the engine is on boost as things happen too fast to watch them. With the help of my daughter we got the job done today. Wish the tach could be included but you have to be in the driver's seat to fit it in.

Here is what your WUR does to control pressure on boost and the corresponding AFRs:

Fuel Pressure On Boost - 930S - YouTube

Here is what the boost gage and speedo were doing. You can see/hear the tires let loose when I punched it at 3000RPM in 1st. These are 345mm wide mind you. Hit the rev limit and jammed 2nd. It takes very little time to hit the top of the speedo which is 90mph.

Boost & Speedometer - 930S - YouTube

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-15-2014, 12:36 PM
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Nice!!! Thx for sharing. Looks like the GG is well dialed.
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81 Pacific Blue 930 Euro coupe slicktop on a strict diet, Rarlyl8 headers, Blowzilla turbo, Tial waste gate, Full bay I/C, Home made center out exhaust, Leask WUR, MSD 6AL, PLX wideband
Wevo shifter, LSD. Next up, Cams, Heads and port work
Old 11-15-2014, 03:13 PM
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It sounds like it's running real good.
Old 11-15-2014, 04:48 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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I bought a $10 iPhone holder that has a flexible arm and suction cup for these things.

It'd work with a GoPro perfectly too.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 11-15-2014, 05:06 PM
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Chain fence eating turbo
 
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Is this a 915 box or 930?
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 11-15-2014, 05:07 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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It's been a long road bringing this car back from the near-dead but she's getting there. The fuel system finally seems to be sorted and running well. I'm always amazed at how much you can wake these engines up with a good muffler and some tuning.

Yes stock 4spd box. 1st gear will roast the 345's. The film doesn't begin to do the tire spin justice but you can see it takes a split second to go from 3000rpm to redline.

I'll have to look into that iPhone holder and see what can be done there. My daughter rather enjoyed the trash event though, ha!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-15-2014, 08:16 PM
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Very nice!

I have some data logging somewhere from my innovate setup including CP. it is interesting to see. If one could install a small actuator to adjust CP on the run, that would be nice.
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Jesper
Carrera 3.0 1975
930 1978 OEM Matte Schwartz, ANDIAL IC, BL WUR, SC cams. LMA-3 w. XD-16 and CP transducer
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Old 11-15-2014, 08:23 PM
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It looks like your control pressure is 56 psi while cruising steady speed and then drops down to 41 psi during full boost.

With dual 044 fuel pumps and a 20% increased flow "007" CIS Flowtech modified aluminum fuel head on mine along with a Brian Leask adjustable control pressure regulator I have steady cruise control pressure @ 60-62 psi to have 3000rpm steady cruise AFR around 14.8:1 plus or minus 3 and a smooth steady idle AFR around 13:1 with 964 cams and idle timing around 15* BTDC.
During full boost the AFR drops down a lot like yours but doesn't go as lean up around 6000rpm, it's usually around 11:1 at those revs.

It's very hard for me to take my eyes off the road and look down at my onboard control pressure gauge near the center console when the car is accelerating at full boost in second or third gear... things are happening very fast so I havn't tried that often enough to remember what it is exactly.

Full throttle in first gear just rips both of my 315/30x18 P zero tires loose instantly (stock 930 4 speed with LSD) and my 6500 rpm shift light comes on at the same time so I don't do that. It's a waste of time and just tears up expensive tires quickly and you better be going in a straight line if you do.
Feathering it around half throttle in first gear works better.

I've thought of setting up a tripod inside the car with my D800 mounted on it and bungie cording the center post down tight to keep it in place so I can take a video while driving. Maybe I'll try it one of these days...

Last edited by JFairman; 11-16-2014 at 05:55 AM..
Old 11-15-2014, 10:00 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I tried the tripod deal once and also had a camera mounted on a harness bar. Too much trouble to fiddle with the camera in that location.

I've adjusted the WUR to target 11.0 AFR midrange and 12.1 AFR at redline. I like to have it a bit fat at peak torque. Your -007 output demands a higher WCP than my stock Euro head in order to hit 13 AFR at idle. My target was 13.5 but the engine runs better at 13.2. Cruise is ~14.5 give or take. I don't have LSD but both tires blow and the car wants to kick out if you're not perfectly straight when you hit it. All and all she's a riot to drive!
I'm gathering parts now to "go big". Never breached 450WHP and we're shooting for 500WHP. Honestly I'm not sure if I'll like the characteristics but power can always be dialed back.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-16-2014, 03:43 AM
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Brian, thanks for posting. 1.2BAR - - impressive...

Also, you may want to change your signature: '78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
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LIVN80S - - Red '79 Porsche 930 Steel Slant Nose Conversion [in 1987] w. 46k miles 3.3L; 964 Cams; K27HF @ 1.0 BAR, with Garrettson Intercooler; Rarly Zork; CIS Flowtech Fuel Head & BL-WUR.
Old 11-16-2014, 05:27 AM
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Sorry if you've posted before, but have you dyno'd this one?

I mount my suction cup on the driver's window for the iPhone.
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 11-16-2014, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooney265 View Post
Brian, thanks for posting. 1.2BAR - - impressive...

Also, you may want to change your signature: '78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
I only saw 13PSI. What am I missing?
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Cory - turbo'd '87 C3.2 Guards/Blk, 3.4, 7.5:1 CR P & C's, soon to be 993SS cams and GSXR 750 ITB's fed by 964 intake, Borg-Warner S366 turbo @ 1.4 bar, Treadstone full bay IC, TiAL F46 WG, HKS 1 1/2" BOV, twin 044 pumps, MegaSquirt 2 (v3.57 board) w/EDIS, Tramont wheels (285's rr, 225's frt), Big Reds frt, 993 rr., tower brace, MOMO wheel
Old 11-16-2014, 05:55 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Boost is stock at 0.8bar using the stock waste gate. The only modifications to this engine are the muffler and SC cams. The rest is tuning. The boost gage is not typical so it may be hard to read the numbers. Vac is inches of mercury, pressure side is PSI.

Here is the dyno, she went 300HP to the wheels. Euro engine stock is rated at 300HP at the crank so we've gained about 15%.

RarlyL8 - Gray Ghost Baseline Dyno - YouTube
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-16-2014, 06:21 AM
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What parts are you gathering to go big? Bolt on stuff or motor rebuild stuff?
Mine idles smoothest at 12.8 to 12.9:1 AFR with todays E10 gas.

You won't get more fuel from the euro CIS fuel head without having the metering orifices shortened and or machined out a little because your cast iron euro fuel head has a stainless steel fuel metering diaphragm up against the bottom of them. Then it might be unpleasent to drive while driving around town at low speeds if you had that done.

The aluminum lambda fuel head metering diaphragm is made of a flexible rubber like material with 6 stainless steel discs around the size of a nickel bonded to it under the metering orifices. It works kind of like a final fuel pressure regulator with 6 individual flow adjustments - one for each injector line. That's part of the reason why it's capable of flowing more fuel than a cast iron fuel head. They weigh less and don't rust inside either. All around better fuel head when adjusted correctly.

The ball bearing Garret GSX 61 with billet compressor wheel I put on mine made the biggest increase in midrange response and top end HP over anything else I've done and power comes on at lower rpms with less turbo lag than any K27. It makes the car way more fun to drive and I like the turbo spool whistle it makes.
I've never experienced a GT35R but I imagine it's similar.
Old 11-16-2014, 06:47 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I know all about the fuel system components and their limitations, 500WHP will not be a problem with the mods we have in mind. Once it is all ironed out I will incorporate the specs into the engine power package, stage 3 if you will. The mods are not restricted to bolt-on at that point, head work and cams will be integral so the boost level can be kept low enough to safely run pump gas.
What power level are you at Jim? We haven't chosen a turbo yet and are considering the GSX 61.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-16-2014, 07:19 AM
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I've never had it on a Dyno so I don't know how much HP it's making.
I installed new Mahle 3.3 pistons and cylinders last spring and they only have around 800 miles on them so far.
The heads are 1975 930 heads that have been milled down .018" with new valve guides and valves in them. The valve seats were reground with 3 angles.

I carefully opened up the intake manifold holes and intake ports to 40mm ID to match the 40mm aluminum injector blocks I used. I posted pics of all that last spring so you probably remember all that.
It has 964 cams timed at 1.26mm intake valve lift at TDC before the intake stroke.
Exhaust ports are the 1975 930 stock 34mm ID. Only the 1975 930 heads had 34mm exhaust ports. From 1976 on they were all 32mm... I guess that was to get lower emissions with the air pump injection.
I would have opened up the exhaust ports to 36 or 38mm but they match the B&B header flange tubes that insert into them around 8mm the way they are so I left them.
I could have cut them off the header flanges so the flange would fit flush to the exhaust ports but they are there for a reason (probably over engineering) and I was concerned it might have exhaust leaks at the flanges under boost if I did that. I probably I could have done that and not had exhaust leaks with new gaskets because other headers don't have those and they don't leak.

It has B&B headers with a B&B muffler with all the internal baffles and flow directors cut out. It still has the 1" of stainless steel packing around the inside diameter wall but that doesn't restrict flow it just makes it a little quieter.
I put a summit racing 2.5" electric exhaust butterfly valve with a short turn down tail pipe on it over on the passenger side of the the muffler that opens or closes by pressing a momentary rocker switch. It probably lowers backpressure a little and definately makes the exhaust louder as it opens.

It all works nice. It runs perfect and I can only guess how much horsepower it's making.
I have adjustable boost with a boost presure regulator feeding the top of the wastegate and it's set to 1.1 bar. I also have water methanol injection on it but that doesn't make any more horsepower that I can feel while switching it on or off, it just lessens the chance of detonation or pinging under boost.

I would guess horsepower is around 400 at the flywheel at 1.1 bar boost. Maybe a little more... I don't know.
Old 11-16-2014, 07:54 AM
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Hi Brian,

Nice set-up! I need to finish setting up my gauges. I have a list of upgrades/differed maintenance to tackle and that is definitely one of them.

I've been lusting after one of your equal length headers and mufflers...unfortunately not in the immediate future. Have you contemplated putting more sound track videos of different set-ups of your systems and stock system? i.e. the available mufflers and then the equal length headers with your available mufflers. It would be a great selling tool.

Rahl
Old 11-16-2014, 08:06 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Jim I would think you are at least 400HP to the wheels. Our standard build of headers/IC/Turbo/Muffler/1bar/Cams/CIS nets 400WHP every time. How is your MeOH/H2O set up? I have been thinking about adding that to the 500WHP build as insurance. The pancake manifold being modified for 6 injectors instead of fogging the intercooler.

Yes now that adding YouTube is so easy I will be doing more. I took one video of the gages during the warm-up process on the same 45F day and plan to take another when it is 70F so folks can see the difference. I see a lot of posts about cold start issues and this might help them understand how it works and what you should see. Also want to capture the sound difference between the short tube headers and tuned headers, that is something overlooked for the most part. I love the tuned sound and regret not getting the old Red Rocket recorded as it had a nice higher pitched tone on cruise and sounded pure wicked at 4000-7000RPM!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-16-2014, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post

Here is the dyno, she went 300HP to the wheels. Euro engine stock is rated at 300HP at the crank so we've gained about 15%.

RarlyL8 - Gray Ghost Baseline Dyno - YouTube
.
Brian,

Would you mind posting the baseline dyno graph? I'd love to see it, especially if it includes AFRs. Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Also want to capture the sound difference between the short tube headers and tuned headers, that is something overlooked for the most part. I love the tuned sound and regret not getting the old Red Rocket recorded as it had a nice higher pitched tone on cruise and sounded pure wicked at 4000-7000RPM!
I have your tuned headers and center out street muffler on my 930 and the sound is FABULOUS!
Old 11-17-2014, 05:28 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I never got a copy of that graph. The AFRs looked like they do in the video, 14.3-ish at cruise, 11.0 at boost threshold and a slow rise to 12.1 at 6500rpm.

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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-17-2014, 03:44 PM
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