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Rich76_911s is RICH too!

Hey Guys,

Working on my "clunker," and I've got some questions about the fuel pressure readings I am getting.

I recently had my WUR sent to Brian Leask, because I was running really rich to the point of cutting out under partial boost. I was hoping that Brian's secret sauce would remedy my RICH condition, but I'm still running like Mr. Piggy.

Brain set my WUR up to have:
Cold Control Pressure: 2.7 Bar at 32 degrees C.
Warm Control Pressure: 3.75 Bar
Enrichment Pressure: 2.7 Bar

Today I did test my pressures and I got something vastly different. This is in no way saying Brian set my WUR up wrong, I had this problem before he touched it.
Cold Pressure: 9 psi or 0.62 Bar
Warm Control Pressure: 38 PSI or about 2.55PSI
Enrichment: I didn't test
System pressure measured out at: 98 PSI or about 6.75 Bar
Just for reference it was cold out at only 42 degrees F.

I could just adjust the pressure using my now adjustable WUR, but I'd like to fix what is wrong and use the adjustable WUR for smaller adjustments.

So what could be throwing my pressures off so significantly? Anything else I should test?

As a point of reference I also set up a AFR gauge when I installed the adjustable WUR. And all I can say is that my cruising AFR's were at or below 10 most of the time. My AFR gauge doesn't go below 10, and I spent a lot of time at 10. Occasionally it would get up to 13 cruising but not too often.

Thanks,
Rich

And a pic just to keep it interesting


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"The reason most people give up is because they look at how far they have to go, not how far they have come." -Bruce Anderson via FB
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Old 11-16-2014, 07:47 AM
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Hey Rich-

Have you touched the "pressure regulator" on the fuel head? It's the bolt with different sizes / amounts of shims on the bottom / left / front corner IIRC.

I installed a new one and set my control pressure to spec after I installed my BLWUR, ensures a good baseline. ~ $38 from our host I think.

btw, one of the Dragon pics I posted the other day included yer car in its previous life heh heh:

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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
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| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 11-16-2014, 10:00 AM
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Thanks Paul!

I have not touched the pressure regulator on the fuel head. I'll order one and see how that goes. Outside of changing oil this is the first time I've worked on the 930.

Don't know what I did, but I must have knocked something off removing the air cleaner and intercooler, cause the car won't start after I put it back together.

So cool to have some known history & pics of the car. I love it and hope to do it as much justice as Keith and all it's previous owners have done.

Thanks again,
Rich
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"The reason most people give up is because they look at how far they have to go, not how far they have come." -Bruce Anderson via FB
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:28 AM
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sorry, bottom right - of the fuel head, that is... typo
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 11-16-2014, 01:26 PM
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Ok. I will check in....with a tear in my eye. This is also My old car. It is a fantastic car and ultra rare. Non sunroof. Marine blue. I hounded Keith for about a year and a half to sell it to me... Eventually he did. I enjoyed it for a few years and then he called and wanted it back.... So I agreed to sell it back. I have had many 930's and yours just might be my favorite. Enjoy, Tate
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Old 11-16-2014, 01:58 PM
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Rich, the air/fuel adjustment screw, did you possibly jam that when reinstalling the air cleaner? Is it plunging smoothly?
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:33 PM
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Thanks again. Paul - I think I have the right part: 928-110-920-01-M14 Looks like the price may have changed since you did yours. HA HA

Quote:
Originally Posted by AskewRSR View Post
Ok. I will check in....with a tear in my eye. This is also My old car. It is a fantastic car and ultra rare. Non sunroof. Marine blue. I hounded Keith for about a year and a half to sell it to me... Eventually he did. I enjoyed it for a few years and then he called and wanted it back.... So I agreed to sell it back. I have had many 930's and yours just might be my favorite. Enjoy, Tate
Tate,
Thanks for the introduction and for taking care of the car before I got my mitts on it This is my first and probably only 930, I certainly got lucky finding it when I did. If you have any history/photo's/stories you want to share I'd love to hear them. You can email me at rich76_911s (at)hotmail.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by oilonly View Post
Rich, the air/fuel adjustment screw, did you possibly jam that when reinstalling the air cleaner? Is it plunging smoothly?
I don't think I jammed the air/fuel adjustment screw. I can still push it down with some effort. Could I have potentially turned the adjustment screw without using an allen wrench?

Car turns over well, but won't start. I have to go through the - my car won't start thread and work on finding a solution.

Can I ask a stupid question while I am at being stupid. What is the connection with the red arrow, and should there be a second one?





Cheers,
Rich
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Old 11-16-2014, 05:45 PM
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That is an emissions part, don't think that is your problem.
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:19 AM
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ha Tate, I had no idea - too funny!

Rich, yer car is the neighborhood doorknob... everyone gets a turn! 8-)

You can't really inadvertently turn the idle AFR screw, it has to be depressed then turned and turning it is usually somewhat hardish.

Yes, ignore those connections to the left, was secondary air BS.

Sorry, I was going off of memory on the FPR cost - was 2011 when I'd purchased. Btw, the FPR isn't related to your no-start, that was suggested in response to your rich condition. Just clarifying in case it wasn't clear.

No-start... should be an easy once since you just had your airbox / IC off... can only be so many variables then if it was running fine prior. Maybe you dislodged the coil wire or fuel pump relay or something.

Surf that thread and hunt / peck till you find it 8-).
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Paul... CT | '87 930 | '08 M3 6gang vert |
past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 11-17-2014, 05:23 AM
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i would not spend the $ on a FPR. do some more testing before spending $. if 6.75 is spec, the FPR is working.

first, how do you know you are running rich? do you have something to test the exhaust?
second, if that is what brian set your WUR to find out what system pressure that is based on.
(probably not that big a deal. most likely it was set for your system pressure spec).
then i might try another set of gauges. i have 2 sets, both bought at the same time. they read nearly 1bar different but on the hi end, IE system pressure. one set says 5.3bar the other says 6.1bar.

i dont know what that particular solenoid is for but there were ones on there for blocking vacuum to the dist, like when under boost.

i take it these pressures are checked with the engine off since you say it wont start.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
i would not spend the $ on a FPR. do some more testing before spending $. if 6.75 is spec, the FPR is working.

first, how do you know you are running rich? do you have something to test the exhaust?
second, if that is what brian set your WUR to find out what system pressure that is based on.
(probably not that big a deal. most likely it was set for your system pressure spec).
then i might try another set of gauges. i have 2 sets, both bought at the same time. they read nearly 1bar different but on the hi end, IE system pressure. one set says 5.3bar the other says 6.1bar.

i dont know what that particular solenoid is for but there were ones on there for blocking vacuum to the dist, like when under boost.

i take it these pressures are checked with the engine off since you say it wont start.
I thought I was rich before I sent the WUR off to BL because I was getting choked out under partial boost and was leaving a black cloud behind me when it happened. Gas mileage was down near or below 10 mpg as well.

When I installed the BL WUR I also installed a PLX wideband O2 sensor and gauge. I felt it was best to be able to have knowledge of my AFR's with an adjustable WUR. The gauge only measures down to 10:1 and I spent significant time there, so I can confirm my gut feeling that I was rich.

Yes pressures were measured with the car not running. And I do confess that it was not on a battery charger for the measurement.

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and input.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:06 PM
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since your system pressure is correct and if brian set the WUR to 3.75 and you are reading 2.5 either brian made a mistake, you are doing something wrong or the gauges are not correct.

wait a minute. you were rich before you sent it to BL. what were your pressures then?

do you have the frequency valve (FV). could it be stuck open. that would make it rich.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-18-2014, 03:39 AM
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Yes, I was rich before sending the WUR into Brian. Unfortunately though I do not have any fuel pressure readings from before sending it in.

I have to look into the frequency valve, as I don't know whether I have one or not. Thanks again for all the insight.

Rich
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Old 11-19-2014, 05:23 AM
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i would try to find another set of gauges to check pressures. when i run into problems like this that dont make sense, i start looking at what am i doing wrong or what test equipment could be wrong. in this case i would question the pressure gauges since you had the problem before, BL would not send out a WUR with the wrong pressures.

look into the FV. i was reading were someone said the default broken condition is open which would make it run rich. other than that the only thing might be the comouter sending the wrong signal to the FV. i thouhgt it would be closed since when the O2 relay goes bad the mixture goes lean.

i question my gauges on my system pressure. i am making a 2hr trip south to a friends shop to verify.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 11-19-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
i would try to find another set of gauges to check pressures. when i run into problems like this that dont make sense, i start looking at what am i doing wrong or what test equipment could be wrong. in this case i would question the pressure gauges since you had the problem before, BL would not send out a WUR with the wrong pressures.

look into the FV. i was reading were someone said the default broken condition is open which would make it run rich. other than that the only thing might be the comouter sending the wrong signal to the FV. i thouhgt it would be closed since when the O2 relay goes bad the mixture goes lean.

i question my gauges on my system pressure. i am making a 2hr trip south to a friends shop to verify.
Thanks for the insight. I'll look into finding another set of gauges locally.

I'll have to look into how to test the FV. I'm pretty sure I have one on my car.

>


I did swap out the computer under the driver seat with a known working one pre-BL WUR, and that did not impact the rich running conditions.

I want to stress that I absolutely agree that Brian did not send me a WUR that was not tuned correctly. Which is precisely why I am hesitant to just adjust my cold & warm pressures without finding the root cause of the problem.

I still haven't been able to start the car. The closest I've been to having the car start. The WUR was at least partial warmed up when it coughed to life, barely.



Poor car is outside right now. If I don't get it started tomorrow I'm going to have to rent a trailer and get it into storage.

Thanks again everyone for the help. I'll keep you updated on progress when and if I have any.

Cheers,
Rich
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Old 11-21-2014, 07:25 AM
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Rich-

People here hate when I suggest this, but years ago when my car had some sort of hard start issue that sounded EXACTLY like yours did in the ^vid^... kicking the CRAP out of the throttle as I cranked it got it started every time it did that.

Run outside and give it a try - real quick stabs to floor, and off in rapid succession as you crank, and try to 'catch it' with a feathered throttle once it begins to pop.
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past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 11-21-2014, 07:49 AM
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Hey Paul,

Thanks for the tip. That got me closer to starting, but not quite. Might be good that it didn't or hasn't started yet. After giving the above a shot I noticed a pool of gasoline under the car. It's certainly not oil. I can't see the source of the fuel from the topside. Going to jack the car up and see what the hell is going on.

Could I possibly be getting just insane amounts of gas in the cylinders, and as I turn it over it is just pushing it out the exhaust? The flange where the turbo meets the fabspeed exhaust was damp.

There was no wetness or fuel on the car or ground before I tried starting it.

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Old 11-21-2014, 08:18 AM
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ohsnap - um yeah, you def got some other issue goin on thar... like you said, good thing it didn't start!
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past:

| '07 S6 | '98 M3 vert | '01 M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 S8 | '95 S6 6gang | '88 M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 11-21-2014, 08:24 AM
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Yes indeed, something is not kosher.

I got under the car and couldn't really pinpoint the direct source.

I'm going to drain the oil and take a look at a couple of things. Then I'm going to tow it and get it stored. Don't want to have it sit outside anymore.

Might just go down to AC tonight and throw my Porsche $avings on red or black

Thanks again for all the help,
Rich

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Old 11-21-2014, 09:06 AM
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