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Grappler
 
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D-Zug rocks. Lighten up. They make cool products, and their cool guys too. If you had an issue with the shifter, the best course of action would be to contact D-Zug first to give them a chance to correct things if needed. Why blast them without even giving thema chance to make good?

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Old 11-25-2014, 07:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Roland,

I have to say ... In my opinion that was a pretty unfair criticism of the D-Zug shifter.

Very uncool to post something like that without ever having contacted them with your concerns.

I am not an engineer, but your quality issues seem awfully petty to me.
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #22 (permalink)
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I personally know the D-Zug guys since many, many moons ago, and can tell you that they are solid Pcar and people guys; and if you have an issue they will go out of the way to help you and solve the situation... I know it, seen it and support them. I wish more people will follow their dream, as they do, and do whatever you enjoing doing.
S--t happens and believe this shifter deal is like it; but as they (Pete & Justin) said above noone contacted them on this matter; so, shame on you...
Old 11-26-2014, 05:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #23 (permalink)
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Roland I"m with the others here,, Pete and Justin are great guys and will when given the chance make things right,, but you've got to give them the chance.. They do this for the love of the cars,, not like they are getting rich doing it...
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Old 11-26-2014, 06:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #24 (permalink)
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I'm with Roland, although I do not know him.

The piece was definitely poor quality. How they could have released something like that indicates their level of concern in their quality control.

The chances of ANY company "fixing" a problem like this are very slim these days, so Roland's general assumption was fair enough. It would have involved not only time, but confrontation, and agonizing proof, etc.

Face it, it was only thru your personal connections with D-Zug that you had any prior insight. Sure, now that we have some affidavits that D-Zug is stand-up, it seems unfair -- but there was no way for him to know this, and R's assumption that their response would be "too bad, you bought it, you should have asked first...." is par for commerce these days.
Old 11-26-2014, 06:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo View Post
I'm with Roland . . .

Same here.

The problems with the shifter that Roland received are significant (talking sloppy cuts, poor positioning of welded pieces, etc) - these are major flaws that do not fall into the shat happens or petty nitpicking category . . . hard to believe someone on D-Zug's end approved it and shipped it to the customer (especially considering the great cost of the unit). Also, the citing of multiple positive customer reviews of the shifter, positive character references of the D-Zug guys, and chastising comments about Roland's decision to publicly question the product he received, does not change the fact that what was shipped to Roland had major quality problems.

I can't answer as to why Roland did not contact D-Zug with concers (if in fact he did not) - when he posted about the flaws long ago, I said that if it were me, I would have returned the shifter right away and he noted that he did not want to deal with that given he lives in Switzerland. Obviously, it would have been best if he had returned it - that way Roland might have been able to get a replacement that was fit for the D-Zug name, and D-Zug would not have such a negative representation of their work floating around out there. That being said, Roland is hardly obligated to return the shifter - he bought it and can do anything he pleases with it (including writing a review about it on a message board).

As far as the comments some have made that Roland should have not posted his quality concerns about the shifter on here, well, I've got to call BS on that - he presented details on the quality of an aftermarket part he bought and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so.

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 11-26-2014 at 08:54 AM..
Old 11-26-2014, 08:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #26 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo View Post
I'm with Roland, although I do not know him.

The piece was definitely poor quality. How they could have released something like that indicates their level of concern in their quality control.

The chances of ANY company "fixing" a problem like this are very slim these days, so Roland's general assumption was fair enough. It would have involved not only time, but confrontation, and agonizing proof, etc.

Face it, it was only thru your personal connections with D-Zug that you had any prior insight. Sure, now that we have some affidavits that D-Zug is stand-up, it seems unfair -- but there was no way for him to know this, and R's assumption that their response would be "too bad, you bought it, you should have asked first...." is par for commerce these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie's.930 View Post
Same here.

The problems with the shifter that Roland received are significant (talking sloppy cuts, poor positioning of welded pieces, etc) - these are major flaws that do not fall into the shat happens or petty nitpicking category . . . hard to believe someone on D-Zug's end approved it and shipped it to the customer (especially considering the great cost of the unit). Also, the citing of multiple positive customer reviews of the shifter, positive character references of the D-Zug guys, and chastising comments about Roland's decision to publicly question the product he received, does not change the fact that what was shipped to Roland had major quality problems.

I can't answer as to why Roland did not contact D-Zug with concers (if in fact he did not) - when he posted about the flaws long ago, I said that if it were me, I would have returned the shifter right away and he noted that he did not want to deal with that given he lives in Switzerland. Obviously, it would have been best if he had returned it - that way Roland might have been able to get a replacement that was fit for the D-Zug name, and D-Zug would not have such a negative representation of their work floating around out there. That being said, Roland is hardly obligated to return the shifter - he bought it and can do anything he pleases with it (including writing a review about it on a message board).

As far as the comments some have made that Roland should have not posted his quality concerns about the shifter on here, well, I've got to call BS on that - he presented details on the quality of an aftermarket part he bought and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so.
I'm sorry but I disagree. Everyone deserves a chance to rectify their mistake. We play in a niche market/hobby and this can easily happen to any outfit that produce items in small numbers.
I'll give you an example on an item I ordered from Poland. Two of the items came damaged. I could have gotten on the boards and complain but instead I contacted the vendor and had new parts in my house within 8 days(yes 8 days from Poland). I was very happy with the item and service.
Mistakes happen, is how we deal with them that makes the difference.
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Old 11-26-2014, 03:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #27 (permalink)
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Ok guys, sorry for the late reply, had no time before.

First of all, thank you for your opinions, no matter pro or against. There are several reasons I did not contacted D-Zug in this case:

I bought it from Pelican, so D-Zug is not responsable for me

The smaller issues like the not square top, those fancy drillings etc.. are mainly quality issues, but the important ones are just poor engineering. I am not saying the shifter does not work fine, cannot say as I did not drive yet. But for over 600USD I just expect a way different part, quality and engineering. Look at a Hargett or a Wevo,both pricy too, much higher level for sure.

When this shifter was designed, mechanical aspects were not or only little ovserved. Then when the final design was reached, they should have cheched it under several point of views before making in serie and that is what I miss and so I don't see to get a product worth this price even if I let them change out.

Just a little not to understand my concerns:

The underside is completely flat, but there is the stock bracket/bearing of the bar in the tunnel, which originally between tunnel and shifter housing, that's where the stock housing has an opening for that bracket. Not so the D-Zug shifter, what has the effect, that the shifter is not resting flat on the tunnel. When you don't see a thing like this, you should better not design parts like this, not for that price. And the fact that it's proudly presented as made in the US does not help here at all.

So I decided to make it my way and stay away from mailing shipping etc...

Finally I do have to say that it was not correct from me not to inform anyone beside this forum. I apologize for that
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by proffighter View Post
...
First of all, thank you for your opinions, no matter pro or against. There are several reasons I did not contacted D-Zug in this case:

I bought it from Pelican, so D-Zug is not responsable for me

The smaller issues like the not square top, those fancy drillings etc.. are mainly quality issues, but the important ones are just poor engineering.
...But for over 600USD I just expect a way different part, quality and engineering. Look at a Hargett or a Wevo,both pricy too, much higher level for sure.

When this shifter was designed, mechanical aspects were not or only little ovserved. Then when the final design was reached, they should have cheched it under several point of views before making in serie and that is what I miss and so I don't see to get a product worth this price even if I let them change out.

...And the fact that it's proudly presented as made in the US does not help here at all.

So I decided to make it my way and stay away from mailing shipping etc...

Finally I do have to say that it was not correct from me not to inform anyone beside this forum. I apologize for that
Roland,
Do not apologize. Your rationale is correct. If these guys had not been "cool guys," their supporters would have jumped all over the product.

Last edited by baloo; 11-28-2014 at 07:54 PM..
Old 11-28-2014, 02:19 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #29 (permalink)
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Roland,

Your original post was 100% accurate and absolutely appropriate. And I appreciate you pointing out the issues with your shifter. An accurate review of a product, niche market or not, is always helpful to others considering a purchase. You owe nothing to the manufacturer of that shifter. You paid a premium price for it and you should expect a premium product. You certainly didn't receive one.

The rationale "it works just fine in our project mjolner, 935 K3 and 934, and over 100 customer cars worldwide" along with the sarcastic "I'm sorry your shifter isn't up to Swiss watch specifications" reflects an attitude that fosters the poor workmanship and quality of the shifter you received.

Bottom line, they sold you a piece of crap and you called them on it. Don't let anyone here turn this around so that it appears you've done something wrong.

Doug
Old 11-28-2014, 07:09 PM
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Right on Doug... well said. Roland too.
Old 11-28-2014, 08:27 PM
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One comment about D Zug, ... I ordered to 917 Shift balls. For some reason they never showed up. Eventually I called and they immediately dispatched two, which made it to the house in record time. One was a birthday present for my brother and the other one for my 914/6. I am sure the Turbo will be getting one soon!

Seem to be good guys to deal with. It will not be my last buy from them!
Old 11-29-2014, 04:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #32 (permalink)
 
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Interesting thread...

Lets forget the "support for the good guys at D-Zug" (which I think they are) and the "roland should have contacted them first" issues.... None of that has anything to do with the quality of the part in question, or if it represents any value at its price point....

So I guess the real question is:

Are the issues Roland brought to light being addressed or are they being disregarded? Is the company relying on good press from posted links, or are they interested in listening to feedback from a customer?

It really does not matter if a customer contacts a company directly. Yes, it is preferred, but not required. In this case, Roland has made contact with D-Zug through this thread. Roland and more than one D-Zug party has responded, so contact/communication has occurred. Now, we can wait and see if this customers concerns are deemed legitimate, and if so, how are they dealt with.

Cheers
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Alton View Post
Interesting thread...

Lets forget the "support for the good guys at D-Zug" (which I think they are) and the "roland should have contacted them first" issues.... None of that has anything to do with the quality of the part in question, or if it represents any value at its price point....

So I guess the real question is:

Are the issues Roland brought to light being addressed or are they being disregarded? Is the company relying on good press from posted links, or are they interested in listening to feedback from a customer?

It really does not matter if a customer contacts a company directly. Yes, it is preferred, but not required. In this case, Roland has made contact with D-Zug through this thread. Roland and more than one D-Zug party has responded, so contact/communication has occurred. Now, we can wait and see if this customers concerns are deemed legitimate, and if so, how are they dealt with.

Cheers
These are good points. Although, I think Roland did a pretty good job of documenting the problems with the shifter. I think we already have the answer to how the the customers concerns are going to be dealt with.

"Roland, I'm sorry your shifter isn't up to Swiss watch specifications.
and that you never once contacted me about a problem, only complained to other pelican's on this forum.
and I'm sorry that you haven't even driven your car with it!"

This is an example of some of the worst customer service I've seen. Based on the above response from D-Zug I will never buy any of there products. Looking at some off the other posts it's seems I'm not alone.
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Old 11-29-2014, 10:30 PM
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Well the way I see it is that Roland had issues with the design of the shifter. Its not like the piece he received was damaged, he simply didn't like parts of the design. To me they were minor, to him they were major, but that's just the way the piece was made. Did he simply ask for a refund? No he did not, and the reason was that he liked the shifter enough to keep it and make modifications to it himself, then start a thread about how bad the piece was (that he decided to keep) His thread should only have been started had he asked for a full refund to return the product but been denied. A better course of action would have been to share his findings and corrections (which has some merit BTW) directly with the company first. Now to make matters worse he's hijacking a new thread to start it all over again. Why did he keep the shifter if it was that bad?
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Old 11-30-2014, 08:04 AM
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Thanks guys, I see most see what the main problem here is.

It's not the fact that with my specific shifter went wrong mainly. It's the fact, that when I buy anything, no matter from USA, Switzerland, Germany or even China, I can expect a quality and engineering that reflects the amount of money it costs. Of course there are always products that are better for a price than others or cheaper with same quality, but that's not the case here. It's also not about good guys or customer service or not, it's about they made a product not worth the price at all as my explanation showed quite good i guess.

To the swiss watch comparison: There are cheap Swiss watches as well and you get what you pay for, even if they aren't that bad. But when you buy an expensive one, you get a more or less state of the art product which is far beyound only good and precise function.

Concerning the shifter it means:

Function ok, engineering minimum, last more than a few shifts, no pleasant finish = 200USD

Function nice, good engineering, longlasting and nice finish = 400USD

Function very nice, top engineering, bulletproof and flawless finish = 600USD

It would not be much more expensive for D-Zug to make that shifter much better, but there has to be the will to do and check before producing and selling. Which leads me to the final question: How they fixed the price of over 600USD?
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Old 11-30-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rodsrsr View Post
Well the way I see it is that Roland had issues with the design of the shifter. Its not like the piece he received was damaged, he simply didn't like parts of the design. To me they were minor, to him they were major, but that's just the way the piece was made. Did he simply ask for a refund? No he did not, and the reason was that he liked the shifter enough to keep it and make modifications to it himself, then start a thread about how bad the piece was (that he decided to keep) His thread should only have been started had he asked for a full refund to return the product but been denied. A better course of action would have been to share his findings and corrections (which has some merit BTW) directly with the company first. Now to make matters worse he's hijacking a new thread to start it all over again. Why did he keep the shifter if it was that bad?
It's pretty simple. I like the idea of the shifter and as I explained before and you can see in my thread, it does not need much effort to make it way better. Further shipping to the US from Switzerland, receiving a new one (with even taxes once more) is expensive and it would be better in what point? Engineering would be the same. I don't wanted to wait until they maybe make an improved version which reflects the price, so I took this as a prototype for making my version. BTW, what I made was only to solve the biggest issues, not the final goal.

Minor or major, well looking at the product itself you can say minor, as function in general is not affected that much, at least for a certain time, but looking at the price I tend to say impertinent
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Last edited by proffighter; 11-30-2014 at 08:24 AM..
Old 11-30-2014, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rodsrsr View Post
Now to make matters worse he's hijacking a new thread to start it all over again.
How can you say PF highjacked the the thread ? The OP started this thread to glean info on the shifter being discussed.
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Old 11-30-2014, 09:00 AM
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I think part of the problem here is that the DZug guys are one of "us". Passionate about the hobby while trying to replicate no longer available items. I believe there passion for the hobby comes before the business. The business end is very small and any negative feedback(without being given the opportunity to rectify or respond) can be detrimental for a small outfit. Is Roland wrong for his description?...most likely not. The ideal outcome would have been for both side to communicate privately. Might just have made an even better shifter out of it. Today that's not the case, the OP has a few things to think about, DZug may need to go back and review their designs(nothing wrong with a 2.0 version) and Roland hopefully will gives us a review when his car gets up and running.


We are all here chasing this passion(that plenty of people think we're nuts). When possible lets minimize the "outing" of one of our members without fully giving the member an opportunity to answer or rectify the problem. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but we are a community who need small outfits(or persons) like DZug who take a chance on "niche" items(or service). Carry on gents....
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Last edited by speednme1; 11-30-2014 at 02:01 PM..
Old 11-30-2014, 11:50 AM
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Well said Rey !
I've met up with one of the Dzug guys here in SoCal at Super car Sunday, in Topanga...really into their passion for the Porsche marque and we had a good tech talk.
Small companies or big companies, a glitch can occur in a product that got shipped out...just seems to go with custom manufacturing.
Things can be rectified at the re-seller level ( Pelican), or directly at the mfg. Level (Dzug), either way... with the problem being communicated to one or both parties.

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Old 11-30-2014, 12:48 PM
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