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Happiest when Tinkering
 
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Brake upgrade

So I am doing some reading and I surmise all I need to upgrade the 911 brakes to 996 brakes is the calipers, new rotors, and adapters and misc. hardware right?

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" Porsche there is no substitute" I always liked that saying. Air cooled is the only way to go!
76 911 C.R.A.P. Gruppe #2 BIG time TURBO C.R.A.P. Bitz EFI/EDIS Now MegaSquirt 3
76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 12-31-2014, 02:19 PM
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Wrong forum? You won't find many turbo owners that feel a need to upgrade.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 03:13 PM
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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ROFL. Lots of attitude, but less BAD attitude.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 03:30 PM
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You might drop a PM to Bill Verberg. He's very knowledgeable about Porsche brakes.
I would have questions about how you master cylinder would work with 996 brakes.
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:43 PM
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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What size wheels? Track/Street/both? 3.2 "Wide A" discs and calipers are a nice way to increase your heat dissipation reserves for not much money, fit under 15s, but add unsprung weight. 930 brakes are the ultimate solution that still fits under 15s, although the early 78/79 version would work best due to offset. Downside, they are expensive due to rarity and floating rotor cost.

If you don't care about 15s, the world is your oyster: Aftermarket Brembos, Big Reds, PCCBs, 996 brakes, whatever your budget will allow. Big Reds used to be best bang for the buck, but unsure now. Cayenne and Touareg V10 calipers are an inexpensive and massive option, too.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 03:48 PM
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And yes, Bill Verburg is the guru on this topic.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 03:49 PM
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Dude, the stock brakes on my 66 are adequate for that!
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 05:01 PM
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Is your motivation feel, confidence or ??? Your stock brakes are functionally capable in your stated scenarios.
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930
Old 12-31-2014, 05:03 PM
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I have big reds on my car. The PO went to alot of time, effort and money fitting the system years ago. They work fantastic. I actually wanted to go back to stock 930s up front, but this set up is just so good!

Might want to try Rebel Racing ... it all depends on how fat the wallet is.
Old 12-31-2014, 06:49 PM
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I have a 1980 SC with turbo upgraded engine.
Installed on the car are Boxster front calipers and Pagid yellow pads with 3.2 discs and on the rear, 3.2 calipers, discs and OE pads.

I was told that setup is good for car with around 300HP and it does work very well.
Its a common upgrade and not hugely expensive.

I'm considering upgrading as well but really just for the look of massive brakes to fit my 18" wheels

I did find a company that does adapters to allow 996 and 996 turbo calipers to work with larger discs. But I can't find them now.

I have found this company that does brakes for narrow bodied cars :

Porsche-Carrera-Turbo

The Cayenne caliper upgrade looks awesome but I think a larger Master Cylinder would be required to operate larger setup than the Boxster.
Standard MC is 19mm and later model is 23mm, if I remeber rightly.
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, WEVO Shifter, K27 7200 Turbo, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, Omex 710 ECU, 3.2 Intake, Full Bay Intercooler.....400HP

Last edited by gavinc69; 01-01-2015 at 03:48 AM..
Old 01-01-2015, 03:46 AM
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A great source for Porsche brake upgrade info and parts Vehicle Craft Specialty Services for Porsche cars

Commonly known as VCI -Doug the owner is very knowledgeable and helpful IME.
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Jacob
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:41 AM
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I'll be watching this thread.

the 78 930 clone I picked up has full wide body steel slantnose and a rebuilt and modified, twin plug 3.3 turbo engine. was told it dyno'ed over 400 hp.

well... the guy who built this left the stock SC suspension and brakes.

I am planning to upgrade both when I get to that point.

good luck and keep posting ideas.
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:02 AM
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Ah I found it :

996tt Brakes for 911
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1980 SC Flatnose, Euro 3.0, LW Flywheel, 993 Cams, Port & Polish Heads, RS Cut Valves, Magnacor Leads, Boxster Brakes, WEVO Mounts, TRG Roll Bars, Rollcage, RSR rear fenders, WEVO Shifter, K27 7200 Turbo, OBX Headers, Tial Wastegate, Omex 710 ECU, 3.2 Intake, Full Bay Intercooler.....400HP
Old 01-01-2015, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmith660 View Post
So I am doing some reading and I surmise all I need to upgrade the 911 brakes to 996 brakes is the calipers, new rotors, and adapters and misc. hardware right?
Not quite. There's various ways to do it; I kicked it around for 4-5 years, and finally went with the kit from Instant-G for the 996NA brakes. The monobloc calipers are stiffer than the two-piece calipers (e.g. 993 and earlier), I feel. They're also lighter, I believe. And the 996TT I felt were both overkill for a light car, and too front-biased. I didn't want to faff with a twin master setup (which would require to either ditch the booster for an SC RS setup or go with a boosted Fabspeed or similar). Many people who need the thermal capacity (track) are running twin masters anyway. Those who just bolt in 996TT brakes with no ABS generally report that the front locks up very easily - e.g. not optimal. Because they're 1.92:1 bias, rather than the more street-optimal 1.6:1, or the lower ratios preferred by the factory for the RS cars...

Two things you don't mention above are "hubs" - 911 hubs won't accept 996 rotors, and if you machined them down enough that they would, they'd be dangerously thin - and "wheels" - you can't fit 996 rotors under anything less than 17" wheels.

Just FYI, 996 N/A calipers without spacers are tight on the backside of 8J Rufs - they'll squash your pinky. But they fit, just. The modified hubs also pull in the wheel by 10mm or so - if you're rocking 225/45/17 up front with rolled fenders, you'll have MORE fender clearance afterwards. And slightly more restriction on lock due to tub rub inside the fender well.


You can supply your own calipers if you want. 996 N/A & Boxster S are exactly the same thing, except Boxster S are red - and usually slightly more expensive. I went with red. Contrasts nicely on a black car.

The Instant-G kit provides all appropriate hardware (including fasteners of the correct rating) except hard lines IIRC (which are easy to source from your FLAPS). I also had him supply a set of new 996 rotors (Bolo, OEM for MB/BMW) - they were packed in Sachs waxed paper inside the boxes and were stupid cheap - $200 for all 4 drop-shipped, IIRC.

The front is easy bolt-up with the appropriate hubs (necessary to accept the 996 rotors), and a 0.5mm-1mm shim on the caliper mount lines it up perfectly over the rotor centerline. Which you could happily ignore.

The rear requires the removal of the dust shield, and the tab on the banana arm it bolts to. Then you start fitting the adapter (as in the old sense of the word "fitting"). Go to bolt it up, figure out what fouls, machine it down. Go to bolt it up again, figure out what fouls, machine it down. Apparently the same adapters are supplied for the 993/993TT/996/996TT rears - and there's minor differences between the 911 years as well.

So you just make 'em fit. Eventually it all bolts up - pretty tight. But it fits.

The 911 handbrake shoes do hang out of the 996 rotor by a small amount, but plenty of meat left for engagement. No issues there.


Use a 930 M/C. The '77 originally had a 7" booster, so I switched to an 8" 930 booster at the same time, but wouldn't have bothered if I'd had an SC or 3.2 - although the 930 booster has slightly different specs to the 8" 911 booster, I probably would never have noticed. 930 brake light switches don't match a 911 harness. Not a biggie. And tired brake light switches are notorious for lighting up late anyway.

To tweak the front/rear bias slightly, I used Pagid Yellow (RS19) up front and the more aggressive Pagid Black (RS14) pads in back - good for perhaps 0.05:1 or so - I forget exactly, but still have the spreadsheet if needed. From completely cold, the rears bite momentarily faster than the fronts, but the car hunches down flat/even. Oh, and It. Just. Stops. No drama.

BTW, you CANNOT bed these pads on the street, because they just will NOT get hot enough to gas off - even after 100's of miles of "real" driving. Once they're bedded, they'll squeal/ring if you're toying with them - like lightly slowing down for lights. They shut up completely when you're using them for real. Dust slightly more than factory stock - but not to the point where it's an issue.

What's it like to drive? Well, I was never very impressed with my 3.2 brakes. The 996 brakes are totally different. The pedal moves an inch or two, then felt like there was a block of wood under it after the 3.2 brakes.... Really sensitive, good modulation - pedal hardly moves even under hard braking, so heel'n'toe is much more predictable. I no longer bother to bleed the brakes before (or after) track days... It's incredible how fast they'll haul it down after the straight at PIR. The rotors don't show any wear at all, and the pads look fine.. Amazing how tiring repeatedly braking hard can be...

Only thing to be careful of is transitioning immediately from accelerating hard to braking - like when someone changes lanes in front without warning. If you jump on the brakes too fast - e.g. while the front is still light - it'll just push along in a huge cloud of rubber smoke....

My car can tolerate large amount of rear bias - lowered, stiff TB's (21/30), 40/65 LSD, 255/40/17's at the rear (fat for a 911). I ran 3.2 brakes without a P/V for years - which is about 1.3:1, supposedly far too much. Never caused me any issues, even on greasy roads. I probably will go dual masters eventually - I suspect that the ideal f/r ratio for me would be somewhere around 1.45:1, but can certainly live with the 1.6-mumble:1 I have now.


Mulling it over for years (and considering/rejecting for various reasons many different approaches), I settled on the Instant-G kit, and 996 versus 996TT. Few weeks before I pulled the trigger myself, Peter Bull documented his own install in a rather excellent thread here The mother of all IB brake upgrades?.
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 01-01-2015, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
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who is instant G?
Dr. Steve Timmins (his PhD is in automotive engineering, IIRC).

996tt Brakes for 911

Personally, I found him straight-forward, no BS and great to deal with. Everything happened as/when it was supposed to.

I thought pretty much exactly the same about Jim Patrick. Some say he's hard to deal with. Not my experience.

Both had their own biases (Timmins suggested I use 996TT brakes, I preferred 996NA, Patrick recommended some other brand of LSD while I wanted to use a GT) but were happy to work with my preferences.
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 01-01-2015, 12:53 PM
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Sorry won't touch GSF with a 10 foot pole his knock offs have been stolen from reputable people here in the US such as Clewett
You seem to be confusing Instant-G (the link in the post above) and Going Super Fast.

Two different outfits.
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 01-01-2015, 12:56 PM
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Isnt this the same Steve Timmins that screwed Matteo on his RSR build then wouldnt stand behind it?
I followed the 1st 16 pages of Matteo's build pretty closely at the time, then spun a rod and got a little distracted... Just scanned the rest of it and notice that you seem to reach quite a different conclusion to the one Matteo did.

The list of shops I'd use to build a motor for me is quite short. But there's a lot of talented folks out there.

Quote:
I am not getting them confused I am well aware of albert if others want to take a chance on his stuff well you get what you pay for is all I am saying.
Yeh, my bad - just realized that Gavin posted TWO links - the first to GSF, and the other to Instant-G's kit. I thought your response about GSF was to the second.

I have no real problem with getting what I pay for, so long as I actually do... Sometimes it gets "oh hell no" right out of the box, but you can't complain too much
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 01-02-2015, 07:52 AM
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He didnt take care of the problem Matteo had so he had to take it to another engine builder and Matteo is a very nice guy and I guess has so much money he doesnt get upset about the problems he had on such a high dollar motor I dont have that luxury and I am done discussing this sorry but instant- g is out of the question. I am also done discussing any topics on pelican parts sorry it is not you and has nothing to do with this thread but I am seeking answers to any questions I have from different avenues I wont be posting on this thread any longer
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76 Blazer also restored by me
Old 01-02-2015, 08:05 AM
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I have an 83sc cab. That I converted to 930 . Engine , tranny, suspension, widebody, more than I would like to say. Motor right now is brobably just over 400 at the wheels. I am going to do EFI over the winter. I did the boxster brake upgrade and for me that was great. You can find the parts cheap and looks alot better.
The stopping power was improved and I think is more than adaqute for street driving. If money is no object then there are definitely better set ups. Again for street driving the boxsters are more than fine...
Old 01-02-2015, 08:18 AM
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I am also done discussing any topics on pelican parts sorry it is not you and has nothing to do with this thread but I am seeking answers to any questions I have from different avenues I wont be posting on this thread any longer
Sorry to hear that - many of your ideas/posts were interesting or innovative. Good luck!

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Old 01-02-2015, 09:03 AM
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