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thanks for your service, and good luck on what ever you do.

one issue only referenced briefly is the value of your car at the end of the build.

the values of good, real 930s are going crazy. and ironically you can spend a ton of $$ on 'upgrades' and in the end seriously reduce the resale value of your car. but that may not be much concern for you as you enjoying the end result.

I get the impression many on this forum have had and been modifying their 930s for a while. before the huge spike in values of good, stock 930s. so that issue did not really impact their plans as much as it may for someone today.

if I had a real 930, I would tend to restore close to stock and only consider bolt on upgrades that are easy to reverse when ready to sell. stock these 930s are a blast to drive, and the ride only gets wilder with mods. but some mods actually improve the drive'ability.

I am just beginning my 930 project, and have been reading this forum for over a year getting ideas. it is a clone / modified, built on a 78 SC NA 911. so not worried about damaging the value by doing upgrades. when done I want a fantastic looking car that is a great driver and a bit of a beast.

when looking through the folders of receipts and pics of the build done in 1989-1990, I just can't put together what the guy spent on it. I suspect he could have bought a really nice 930 for less than the cost of the build.

pic of the PO, but not the guy who built it. got it not running. think I saw him wipe a tear from his eye the day the rollback hauled it away to my shop.

in full disclosure, I moded the heck out of the 944 turbo I just finished building to be my new DE/track car. so much for the 'keep it stock' mantra.

__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 03-26-2015, 06:45 AM
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Thanks for all the great advice and here we go!

Did not mean to "go silent" after all the great advice people posted here, but had my friend drop the engine off at the mechanic and every time I see the condition of things with the engine and the car itself suicide becomes a viable option...

I'll post the photos and I think you will understand.... "already torn down" does not even begin to describe it..... Suffice it to say I'd been paying by buddy gas money to drive this to 2-3 Porsche rebuild places here in Virginia (Richmond and North) and all of them said it was too much and too long a project to get involved in....

Just to give you a short example, when the guy who had it removed the engine originally he CUT (yes cut) a lot of the tubes going into various parts of the engine rather than unscrew them.....

And that does not even begin to touch what needs to be done to the interior of the car... which I will let you imagine given that the guy I finally recovered it from left it outside for over a year.... he's really luck to still be walking around...

Anyway.. I digress.... and will quit my sniveling

I downloaded all the great comments and suggestions to date here and once I get some more photos of the engine, etc. I'm going to post a more coherent update with where I am and what my thoughts are on approaches and "desires"... taking my preferred option of going back to the guy who screwed this up to jam his head in a safe and spin the lock...

I'll also be able to list out what previous work was done to the car in terms of suspension, etc.

BLUF:

It's the car of my dreams I've waited my who life for, so I'm not into bragging rights, racing, or any of that. Just want the old girl to be pretty and run good again with any mods that make it more fun to drive.

Looking for my local Porsche owners club in the Yorktown, VA area now :-)

More to follow.

Bob
Old 03-27-2015, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by agentx View Post
.... and will quit my sniveling
Not to worry, Bob, it's what we Marines have come to expect from you Army guys

Kidding aside, congratulations on your new endeavor and welcome to the fraternity!

As you say it did for you, I suspect the 930 lingered for many years in the thoughts of many of us here before we finally created the opportunity to actually own one.

In 1976 I was a nineteen year old Marine, waiting my turn in a barber shop in Olongapo (Philippines) when I spotted a poster on the wall of the coolest car I'd ever seen. I knew it was a Porsche but that was about it. Had a hankerin` for one ever since - finally got mine about two-and-a-half years ago. It's as bad-ass a little car as I'd hoped ... and mine's pretty mild compared to most of these other guys'.

Enjoy!
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`66 912: Sold, `80 930: now resides in Poland, `84 Targa, now resides in The Netherlands, `75 911S: now resides in Northeast Germany, '83 Targa
Old 03-27-2015, 07:08 AM
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Here are the details guys -- and the saga begins...!

WARNING !!!!

SOME (especially small children and puppies) may find these images disturbing. Parental guidance and a lot of Jack Daniels is advised….

As promised, so begins the saga…..

Below are the photos of the engine “as recovered”… yes… the (explicative deleted) who I managed to get the car back from took out both the engine and the transmission. Yes… his people cut a lot of the lines (making them useless) rather than simple unscrew them.

Cheer up. If you think this is bad you should see the interior of the car…. And what the “now needs to be repainted” exterior looks like.

Now that the context of this mess is out there, and after reading the advice to date, here are my initial thoughts subject to the thoughts of the “pros from Dover” given that – as this demonstrates --- I’ve had an “A for initiative and a “D” for judgement so far.

I’m not in a rush for this (obviously).

Here is where I am on some of the “what do you really want out of this” questions:

1. Is this going to be a long slow paced or as fast as you can get-r-done project?

LONG… but not by choice

2. Do you want a great riding car?

If Possible

3. Do you want a great handling car?

If Possible

4. Do you want a investment car {factory stock}?

Depends on what comes back from the Porsche COA (see below)

5. Do you want a daily driver for fun and enjoyment without the concern of end sale value?

Will not be a daily driver, but to take out and enjoy the ride from time to time.

6. Do you want to race it?

No. I’ve already realized me dream of owning a car that can go MUCH faster than I need to be going and just doing that as stupid townies in their rice burners pass me as I stick close to the speed limit is enough…. Although it is fun when one of the little SOBs cuts me off 2-3 times on the interstate to “bait me” and I ease off the gas until he/she/it gets a couple miles ahead and barely visit so I can come in out of their rear-view mirror and pass them at the speed of heat before moving back over and returning to the speed limit….. I actually think I injured one when he might have gotten out of his still moving car thinking it had stopped based on the speed he got passed at….

My thoughts on upgrades at this point are to first see what the COA from Porsche says. If the car has the original engine and paint color AND if the body is as it was ordered then I’ll lean toward keeping it as original as possible. Input back so far indicated that most 930s with the rear fender grills were slant nose and if mine with the “bug eyes” is as it was ordered from the factory then it could be a rarity and more collectable. If it turns out the engine was changed, front end replaced, etc. then there’s less consideration of an “original” and any mod’s reducing collectable value.

I never intend to sell the car (at this point they can bury me with it).

Priority 1 – focus “inside out” to rebuild the engine for functionality as you can see from the photos there is a lot of stuff that needs to be replaced due to how it was “taken apart”.

So for this I would appreciate any guidance, help, parts sources, etc. for basic stuff like a complete gasket and seal kit and other stuff – for example, I’ve been told that it’s a good idea to replace the timing chain with stainless steel ones, but do not have a clue as to what that would be or where to get it.

Priority 2 – Look at upgrades for what is broken. I already know the turbo needs to be re-built or replaced so that and what goes with it is a candidate. Same for the “heat exchangers” (see photos) and a recommendation was to replace them with stainless steel ones; upgrade to a free flow air cleaner; and oil fed chain tensioner conversion (?)

The muffler (see photo) was replaced about 3 years ago and the car driven very little, so it’s good, but I’m not sure if that would need replacement if I do the turbo… I guess I could sell it on ebay….

Since the transmission is out as well, it may be worth just changing the clutch to a lightweight pressure plate and clutch assembly as someone on the forum suggested (source?)

Priority 3 – “external mods” and “cool stuff” like intercooler, and some of the other things people mentioned. After reading al this I am mindful that sometimes it’s a “get one get all” in that if I change the turbo I may need to have to upgrade something else like the intercooler to have it work right.

The “redline” is money. When funds get low the “nice to have’s fall off the table”.

Right now my biggest worry is just to have the funds to cover the parts to get it running based on the way it was taken out.

SO!

My immediate (and most critical) needs are:

1. A reliable place to get internal engine rebuild parts starting with a complete gasket set, EGR, etc.) to include parts that go to cylinders (see photos) that I will need regardless of what I do.
2. Suggestions on heat exchanger and turbo replacement/rebuild (sources?)
3. Advice (and part sources if needed) for cylinder heads/valves (springs, etc.) (Chris at Turbo Kraft?)
4. “Blank” dashboard cover (part under the windshield) I can have re-covered.
5. Suggestions on machining. My guy does not have an in-house machine shop. Although the one he uses can do it, his suggestion was that it may be more cost effective and better in the long run to send the heads out to a place that specializes in doing that just for Porsche 930 Turbo engines.
6. Best “Porsche 930 Specific” re-build book (“How to Rebuild and Modify Your Porsche 911 Engine by Wayne Dempsey”)? (I have the shop manual)

For those with strong constitutions and the willingness to identify remains here is a link to all the photos…

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0b8lyxxewx4u52e/AAAnlxUFHaM9B-OkC2bAbVoHa?dl=0

Thank you all again for your patience. Once the mechanic sorts through all the “boxes of stuff” he got and gets it cleaned up I’ll have more pictures and more “needs” (lately my issues have issues themselves…)…. But I really want to get started gathering the “MUST HAVES” from what is bad or essential.









Old 03-27-2015, 09:44 AM
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Hey Bob-

Thanks from me as well to for your service to our country (and I esp. LOL'd @ the deficated on / hit - good one!).

Regarding your situation:

- the spider web is an o2 pump that unless you live in CA many do just snip and leave - install 914 caliper bolts in injector holes... lose the whole 50lb pump too... me, I say sell it and anything else you take off, huge demand for it on the classifieds forum here, 930 parts are like currency and sell fast and for real $$$ - I've funded ALL of my mods by selling off ALL my OE parts, cost me very little!
- the other tube on the left are oil return tubes (x4) you'll just add new seals to, or if compromised just replace w/ collapsible ones from our host - cheap
- what's wrong w/ your OE heat exchangers? Look OK. Reuse if possible, and just do muffler / intercooler, or preferably sell and fund good used headers
- the ? thing on the manifold is the waste gate - should be OK, may need new diaphragm, and possibly guide... rebuildable, or sell and just get TiAL with the $$$
- the fuel head and intake manifold also look OK - may need new lines, etc. but no big deal - do check that the black injector blocks on the bottom aren't cracked, maybe plane for surface squaring
- motor wasn't stored apart like that outside, was it??? Hope not w/ the jugs open like that. Oy.
- how do you know the turbo needs rebuild? Er, not to be totally shameless here (naaaaa, meeeee?)... I do also happen to have a good rebuilt 3LDZ (OE same as yours) FS in classifieds right now... I'd sold one @ $695 shipped w/in days (less than normal $800 range as I don't know much history on it, but it's good), and the 2nd unit's stalled so I lowered price to $650 - I'd do $600 to help you out, PM me when you are SURE you need one
- yellow bin is rocker shafts, etc.
- you should already have pressure fed tensioners?
- first time I've ever heard about SS chains?

Take detailed pics of exactly what was cut and where, and we'll help you from there.

Any idea of why motor was said to "need to be rebuilt"???

I think you're (hopefully) better off than you think, we'll help you determine that w/ more pics and info. Keep the faith.



ps. also LOL @ the "almost got hit from getting out thinking he'd stopped considering speed he got passed at" bit - BTDT, good times!
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past:

| '01 ///M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 //S8 | '95 //S6 6gang | '88 ///M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |

Last edited by krasuskyp; 03-28-2015 at 06:01 AM..
Old 03-27-2015, 10:42 AM
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Ref “the Spider web” – Great advice. That’s what the guy rebuilding the engine recommended but advised I check with the 930 Brain trust 

Heat exchangers – There are no bottoms to them… rusted out… you can just see the bare pipes. Not sure if that matters or not.

Waste gate- do you know anyone who rebuilds them or is that something that can be self-done?

What is “TiAL”?

Ref fuel head and intake manifold – is it worth replacing the injectors? If so, any suggestions?

Motor Storage – The guy had the motor in one of those big 40’ trailer boxes so it was not climate controlled but it was outside. When he looked at it the motor guy here said “the “jugs” look really good”….

Turbo – I am assuming the Turbo needs to be rebuilt because the fins (circular thing in the center) does not turn by hand. I’ve seen places that advertise rebuilding them for $375 and there were also recommendations to upgrade to the K27, but I was not sure if that “carried the price tag” of a new intercooler and exhaust. Yours looks like a good option as well. I’ll see why they think when I talk to the guy Monday. I did find a place called Rennsport Systems who gave me the option of sending all six to him vice having them taken apart and sent out here for a service he has that includes disassembly & cleaning, resurface heads, R&R guides and hone to fit, machine 3-angle seats, inspect, measure and grind valves to suit, reassemble and set spring
installed height. He would also “plug the holes” the spider went into  and said the prts cost would be for putting in their “P-B guides, guide seals. Only additional cost (significant) would be for a set of exhaust valves ONLY if I need them.

Have no idea how competitive his prices are, but he was helpful 

Rocker Shafts – the dilemma here after I spoke to the gentleman at Renn is something about an issue if the rocker arms do not go back to the same places they were taken off of. Right now they are marked “RH, LH” both nothing about cylinder, etc. His recommendation was to suck down the cost of having the rocker arms reconditioned as apparently it can be a really bad thing if they go back different than where they were placed originally… ???

Pressure fed tensioners – I have what was stock on the car, but was given a recommendation to replace with a Carrera pressurized chain tensioner kit

Talking to our forum host about a premium all-Viton gasket kit that I’ve heard is a good idea (?)

Why motor was said to "need to be rebuilt" – The SOB who started all this told me that there was low compression in two cylinders… based on his standard garage compression check….. he gave me a diagram on a ratty piece of paper I made him give me when I picked the car up. It does not make sense to me because I can’t tell if his “right side” of the engine is looking at it from the back of the car or front. The car was sluggish and the turbo did not kick in. I’m told no that just putting any compression test stuff on a 930 won’t be accurate and it may have just been a problem with the turbo… so it may be possible that taking all this out fo the car was un-necessary… but here we are.

Will post more photos once the mechanic gets the parts cleaning done and we can lay things out to see what we have.

I do know the AC compressor is shot.
Old 03-27-2015, 12:37 PM
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Metal Guru
 
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As far as your engine goes my biggest concern is that you got all the expensive loose parts back from that hack.
Otherwise, it should be a fun project
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Old 03-27-2015, 12:39 PM
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Yeah.. "fun" in a "getting your gums scraped sort of way" so far

Here is what I found as a cost to send the heads out... anyone know if this sounds reasonable?

$1K labor for the valve job which includes; disassembly & cleaning,
resurface heads, R&R guides and hone to fit, machine 3-angle seats,
inspect, measure and grind valves to suit, reassemble and set spring
installed height.

Parts:
$113/set for our P-B guides
$42/set for guide seals
$1650/set for exhaust valves (ONLY IF needed - they said they likely won't be)
$1272 to replace the original Dilavar head studs due to their rate of failure with 993TT ones.
$500 to recondition rocker arms since we can figure out where they were positioned when they came off.
Old 03-27-2015, 08:29 PM
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Hello again Bob,

Yep you have a jigsaw puzzle before you now don't you.

Nothing important in the pictures appears all that compromised. Sure the air injector "spider web" looks like hell, but toss it anyway, so no worries there.

I see 1 pressure fed chain tensioner in one of the boxes, chances are there is the other one there as well, so don't buy them again.

Stainless steel cam chain? Snake oil I tell you, snake oil, just replace it with a factory one if you actually need to, and be done with it.

Your listed head rebuild prices don't seem out of line too much. However, you can get Raceware head studs from our host a lot cheaper. The price for the exhaust valves seems high as well, but check with our host or with Turbocraft.

There are many here on this forum that have installed headers, and I'm sure at least 1 or 2 of them are still hoarding their stock ones, and if you ask politely, they will probably sell them to you for far less than trying to replace with new Stainless steel versions.

Best take a deep breath and wait until you get all the items sorted out, then decide your best careful path.

****update***** just checked prices with our host...yeah you can get new exhaust valves for much cheaper than you were quoted, even genuine Porsche valves are cheaper than that by more than HALF!!!!!

Mark

Last edited by full quack; 03-27-2015 at 09:37 PM..
Old 03-27-2015, 09:30 PM
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TiAL is a brand of replacement wastegate. You / your shop can easily bench test yours (pressurize and check if valve frozen, diaphragm torn, or stem leaks).

True on the rockers - if not #'d, I'd have them addressed.

Can send injectors out for flow testing, or just reuse them. New ones are $$$ ($5-600++IIRC).
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past:

| '01 ///M5 | '96 993 C2 cab | '05 S600 Sport - biturbo V12@Just Not Right 495rwhp / 612rwtq |
| '58 TR3A | '01 //S8 | '95 //S6 6gang | '88 ///M5 | '87 190E 2.3-16 |
Old 03-28-2015, 06:04 AM
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I will second Mark's comment regarding cost of head reconditioning. Yes those exhaust valve prices are high, otherwise appears "normal" The rocker reconditioning pricing looks high to me as well, though I admit that I have only paid for that service along with cam grinding, so I never really paid attention to individual pricing.

The rennsport systems place is Steve Weiner, he contributes regularly on the forums and is generally held in high regard. There are probably options more local to you (I can name a couple here in NJ, but I don't know any in VA). Regardless, an awful lot of people send their Porsche parts to the west coast for service like this.

I wouldn't worry about the jugs being exposed like that - the pistons and rings should be sealing out dust and debris quite well. OTOH, the bottom end of the case could have foreign debris from sitting, as there are large openings where the timing chains pass through and where the oil return tubes plug in. You might want to split the case at this point, and do the full monty.
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:14 AM
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Thanks for the help. I may ask Steve at Renn if I can buy the parts and send them to him if he does the rebuild to save some $$. May be that he (like others) desire to use their own parts.

I've got no problem shipping them anywhere (even NJ if it stays in the union)...

Based on the input so far, I think I'm going to take a "chill pill" and do the following.

1. Have the guy who has the engine send out all the parts that need to be cleaned to be cleaned and degreased so they are easier to handle and I can get a better look at them.

2. Once I have that, take a 1/2 day or so and go out there to lay all the parts out on the floor in an orderly fashion rather than in the "jumbled box of rocks" mode they are in now then take good pictures of everything so I can post them and see where we are.

The mechanic is also open to me "helping" in that I can save some money by taking part stuff that needs to be done myself and not pay him. Nothing complex because as an infantry guy if it didn't work or frustrated us we just blew it up.... not a good approach here.... but, for example, there is no sense paying him to unbolt the turbo from the exhaust (it needs to be rebuilt or replaced) when I could just do that :-)

Great idea on buying used parts form forum folks (CONSIDER THIS MY FIRST OFFICIAL SNIVEL).... I already know I need a dash board cover blank I can get recovered and someone already contacted me about a reconditioned stock turbo.

It'll be an interesting saga.. every time I look at the pile of parts and the car condition I keep remembering what a very wise friend of mine once said... "it would be funny... if it wasn't true"...
Old 03-28-2015, 09:54 AM
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OMG. If someone did that to my engine he'd never know what hit him
Old 03-28-2015, 10:20 AM
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Agentx,

Part of the rebuild process is also to carefully measure and check your existing components to determine whether they are still within spec. This is not difficult work to do yourself, but does require a good deal of patience along with a few special tools (micrometers, bore gauges, etc). I will once again encourage you to buy the 911 engine rebuild book. It will cover 99% of what you need for a 930 engine. On the inside, our 930 engines have very few differences from the naturally aspirated 911. All the factory specs are part of the book.

Study up and decide how much you're prepared to DIY and what you want to subcontract out.

We're here to help.
Old 03-28-2015, 10:28 AM
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I bought the rebuild book from Pelican Parts everyone seemed to recommend. I also have a complete set of the shop manuals for the 930 Turbo. I'd previously purchased them in case the idiot who had the car needed them. He lost (or kept) the CD, but fortunately I kept a copy... everyone probably already has one (but me), but I have it in electrons if anyone needs it :-)

Last edited by agentx; 03-28-2015 at 11:41 AM..
Old 03-28-2015, 11:38 AM
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Hi Bob just got back to reading about your project.....actually in your neck of the woods this past week,,,Hampton roads area....

Jwasbury hit it....the starting point for biggest swing in budget and decision process is - what do you have - and what can you/want to re -use

Pistons,cylinders, rockers, cams, exhaust, IC, turbo can easily add up to $15k+ material cost.

Also check out Larry at cisflowtech...good source for Bosch CIS - cleaning, rebuilding, fuel head, control pressure regulator(WUR), injectors etc

awesome project
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Old 03-28-2015, 12:13 PM
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Wow, I cannot imagine someone doing these things to your car and living to tell about it. You're infantry right? shove a pipe bomb up his ass.
Lots of great folks here happy to help you out. I look forward to seeing your car come back together!
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Last edited by RarlyL8; 03-28-2015 at 01:07 PM..
Old 03-28-2015, 01:05 PM
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b5aar:

Sorry I missed you! If anyone is in the AOR feel free to sop by! the Beer is always cold and the hand rolled cigars are always fresh!
Old 03-28-2015, 02:36 PM
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RarlyL8:

You have no idea how many times I've had pleasurable thoughts about that... but we have to be a "kinder gentler world" -- or so they tell me... so I just vent my energy into wild projects like this one supporting veterans:

https://youtu.be/8WvJUXzbs-o
Old 03-28-2015, 02:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #39 (permalink)
PorscheMoparLiterbike
 
b5aar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: up and down the east coast
Posts: 133
Thanks Bob...booze and cigars..your talkin my language.. I'll shoot you a pm next time I'm in town
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88 930 BnB Kinesis tial 1bar k27/29, MSD Turbokraft IC,sc cams, KEP
Old 03-28-2015, 04:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #40 (permalink)
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