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With some tuning I've got it so it is running 13.5-14.0 AFR's at steady state cruise and 10.0-11.0 at full boost. I had it on the dyno today to confirm and it pulled 330 HP and 321 lbft at the wheels on the Dynojet at Carburetor Connection in Kirkland WA. That was with a 0.5 bar spring still in the wastegate. It has a boost spike that builds from 0.5 to 0.8 bar from 4k to 5.5k rpm, and then it drops back down to a steady 0.5 bar till 7k redline.



You can see on the dyno chart where boost settles from 0.8 bar back down to 0.5 bar at 5,500 rpm. After talking with Chris C at Turbokraft, the next step is to install an electronic boost controller and start turning up the wick. The EBC should mask the spike and incorporate into the higher boost levels. Chris feels it should be safe up to 1.0 bar with his intercooler and the 964 cams which lower the dynamic compression a bit. Hope to have the EBC on ASAP, see about what retuning is needed, and then return to the dyno to document the improvements.
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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C

Last edited by rswannabe; 11-13-2017 at 11:10 PM..
Old 11-10-2017, 09:36 PM
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3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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I misunderstood the boost spike when you mentioned it earlier today. I thought it was when the wastegate transitioned from closed to open. Now it all makes sense.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Old 11-10-2017, 09:43 PM
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Glad you're liking it!
Thanks, again, for the feedback -- we're incorporating those changes into the next iteration.
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:06 AM
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Thats the exact IC I refered to. You made a good choise.

As for boost control, have you thought about having a coarse fuel control with the boost control? That would leave engine still CIS but you would have a bit control over revs/map/AFR. FrankenCIS or AIC-1 can do it AIC being much cheaper I would guess. I have a spare unit if you are interested. I went EFI so now I have two of those but I'd like to keep one if I ever return to CIS. It drove really well with it even though I did not use boost control other than MBC.
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Old 11-12-2017, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rswannabe View Post
Time to update this thread. It has been a while because I got sidetracked on this project by the rebuild of the 2.8 in my '69 ST, subsequently replacing that motor with a 3.8, and needing to rebuild the 3.3 in this car due to excessive blowby. Turns out the turbo had multiple shattered rings and had scarred some of the pistons. So we rebuilt the motor with new JE 8.0:1 pistons and rebuilt the heads while we were in there. The heads got twin plugged as well, but I am still running single plug ignition for now.

With the rebuild I installed the GHL headers, the Rarelyl8 hooligan muffler, Leask adjustable WUR and RPM switch, and a Turbokraft big intercooler to fit under the ducktail. Yes, I reversed course on the no intercooler plan I previously had. I decided I just wanted the greater safety factor and didn't want the added complexity of the water meth injection.

With the installation of the new intercooler I had to relocate the WUR, so I fabricated a new bracket for it. While doing that I went ahead and made it so the WUR could be adjusted without unbolting it from the bracket.





The new intercooler is a significant increase in capacity and efficiency over the stock unit and just clears the ducktail. An added benefit is this setup uses the upgraded 964 style recirculation valve for better on/off boost transition.





I also swapped out the restrictive pancake air filter for a freer flowing KN unit.

Did you have to special order this intercooler from TK? I am having trouble locating this on their website.
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1976 911S Signature Edition - 3.2SSt (JE 98mm 9.5:1 pistons, 964 Cams, ARP Rod Bolts, Big Port SC Heads, 3.2 Carrera Manifold, ID725's, B&B Headers, TS HyperGate45 Gen V, TS RacePort, BW S360, AEM Infinity 506, E85)
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by '76 911S 3.0 View Post
Did you have to special order this intercooler from TK? I am having trouble locating this on their website.
Not on our site, these are custom made to order. Please call us to discuss. Thank you.
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:18 AM
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You get that new wastegate installed yet.....

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Old 11-22-2017, 07:08 AM
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I did and it is working well, but its been too damn wet to start turning up the boost. I'll post a detailed narrative on this soon.
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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C
Old 11-22-2017, 07:21 AM
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Awesome! What boost level is it holding on just the spring (with the EBC turned off)?
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:12 AM
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It’s holding a steady 0.2 bar through redline with the EBC off. No creep or spike at all.
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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C
Old 11-22-2017, 08:39 AM
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Brando
 
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I love that fing car
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:14 AM
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Good to hear that the yellow spring is doing its job.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:05 AM
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So, as referenced above I ended up swapping out my wastegate. After the dyno test I was ready to turn the boost up higher and picked up a Turbosmart Eboost Street 40 electronic boost controller (EBC) and installed it. With the EBC hooked up I took the car out for a test and it promptly hit the overboost limiter. Thinking I had programmed the EBC incorrectly I turned it off completely and the car still was boosting significantly higher than the 0.5 bar spring (931 stock spring) in the stock wastegate should have allowed. So I took the car back home to investigate.

I first confirmed I had hooked up the EBC correctly and that the solenoid was working correctly. It was, and when off, the WG should have reverted to the spring pressure only, but it was definitely exceeding that. So I pulled apart the WG to inspect it and found cracking in the diaphragm running around almost the full circumference.



I think what happened was when I installed the EBC, I went to a smaller diameter line to feed the boost signal through the EBC solenoid to the WG. I think that smaller line (compared to what was in the car before) did not move enough volume of air to overcome the air leaking through the diaphragm in the WG, and thus the car was overboosting. I think the diaphragm leak was also what caused the boost spike on the dyno previously, and when the boost pressure/volume got high enough, it was able to overcome the diaphragm leak and thus the car was able to pull boost back down to 0.5 bar by 5,500 rpm.

To test this I replaced the WG with a new Tial 46mm unit with a 0.2 bar spring in it. I borrowed this from 16volt, who lives very close to me and had a new one waiting to go into his own project. I ordered a replacement for him and thus I didn't have to wait a few weeks for a new one to arrive to keep testing. The new WG holds boost at 0.2 bar perfectly with no creep or spike when run to redline in 1st and 2nd. Granted it has been really wet around here, so my ability to run full throttle is limited. I was also able to do limited testing of higher boost levels using the EBC, and it seems to be working correctly, but I only turned it up to 0.4 bar. All seems to be well though.

Will test further as weather and time allows and then get back on the dyno. Will report back with further results soon.
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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C
Old 11-25-2017, 09:49 PM
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So, with a nice sunny and dry spell over the last few days, I got the turbo out on the road and back on the dyno to test out the new wastegate (WG) and electronic boost controller (EBC). As I stated above, the car is very tractable running on just the 0.2 bar boost spring, even in the extremely wet weather we were having a few weeks ago. Now in the dry I was able to confirm it holds the 0.2 bar to redline under full throttle through multiple gears. Like wise when the boost was turned up using the EBC. So today I took it to the dyno (Carburetor Connection in Kirkland WA) to find safe full boost and the results were enlightening.

First was a baseline run with the EBC off and running just 0.2 bar. Results were 286 hp and 250 lb ft at the wheels. In this state of tune the power delivery is very linear and predictable and the car feels like it has a large displacement naturally aspirated motor. Note max torque of 250 lb ft isn't coming until 5,000 rpm, whereas when the boost gets turned up below, that same 250 lb ft is reached by 3,200 rpm or so. I think that is why the 0.2 bar feels so much more controllable, because it is not getting that big slug of torque so early. Still, it is making more power at the wheels than a variorum 993 3.6 makes at the crank in a car that weighs a lot less. I would be more inclined to let someone uninitiated with turbo 911's drive it at this setting.



Next up was turning on the EBC and turning boost up to 0.5 bar. In this configuration the car made 326 hp and 291 lb ft. With the boost here the car starts to feel more like a turbo motor with a bigger hit of power and torque lower in the rpm range launching the car forward. Feels damn fast.



Then boost was turned up to 0.8 bar and it made 359 hp and 324 lb ft. At this boost level the car runs strong and feels scary fast. It can brake loose the 245 section RE11's in the dry easily in 2nd at over 70 mph and I'm not sure I want to find out if it can do it in 3rd. AFR's are still looking good, dropping to about 10.5:1 when the RPM switch kicks in at 4,500 RPM and then gradually leaning out to about 11.7:1 by redline.



Finally we went a little further to 0.9 bar and got 365 hp and 339 lb ft, but we started to hear some detonation (granted after quite a few hard runs on the dyno) and the AFR started to nose above 12:1. It seemed like we were getting out of the range of the turbo efficiency, so I called it there and turned the max boost back down to 0.8 bar.

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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C

Last edited by rswannabe; 12-12-2017 at 08:54 PM..
Old 12-12-2017, 05:14 PM
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So using the standard 15% driveline loss factor, the car is making about 420 hp and 380 lb ft at the crank. That means the car has a power to weight (2,380 lbs) ratio of 5.6 lbs/hp. In low boost those figures are 335 hp and 295 lb ft for 7.1 lbs/hp. A 993 turbo is 8.2 lbs/hp.

What's nice about how the car is set up now, I have three power levels available at the touch of a button; I can leave the EBC off and have 0.2 bar and 286 whp, turn the EBC onto setting 1 and have 0.5 bar and 326 whp (or whatever intermediate level I want to set it to), or use EBC setting 2 for 0.8 bar and 360 whp.

For now I like the baseline 0.2 bar around town as I feel I can floor it without worrying the car is going to jump sideways on me. I can drive it with a little more abandon and less caution. If I really want to concentrate and turn it up, I've got plenty more at the touch of a button. Open road and having fun, use 0.5 bar. Red mist sets in, 0.8, or at least until I get more used to the power levels. It makes for a pretty easy way to ease into and learn the power and character of the car.
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Brooke
1969 911 ST 3.8 EFI ITB (Irish Green), 1973 911 RS tribute 3.3 turbo (Gulf Blue), 1974 911 3.6 (Black), Beck 904 2.8 project (Silver), 1996 993 C2 (Polar Silver)

2006 Forester STI, 1992 BMW 325 Cab S52 M3, 1952 MG TD with F20C
Old 12-12-2017, 05:26 PM
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Those power curves looks great!!
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1976 911S Signature Edition - 3.2SSt (JE 98mm 9.5:1 pistons, 964 Cams, ARP Rod Bolts, Big Port SC Heads, 3.2 Carrera Manifold, ID725's, B&B Headers, TS HyperGate45 Gen V, TS RacePort, BW S360, AEM Infinity 506, E85)
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:55 PM
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I forget, what are you running turbo wise again? Still the K27-7200?
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Last edited by 16Volt; 12-13-2017 at 07:10 AM..
Old 12-13-2017, 07:07 AM
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Most excellent!
Surprising how your HP carries so well past 6,000rpm. Must be a total blast to drive!
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:32 AM
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Awesome!
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Old 12-13-2017, 09:02 AM
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Nice mods added to a great looking 911! Don't really understand the need for 3 boost settings though, I'd just leave it at full boost all the time and let the right foot do the modulating. My red rocket had similar specs, 360whp and 2700lb with me in it. The 915 could blow the 345mm tires in 2nd gear at will, loved it!
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:41 PM
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