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Jeff NJ's Avatar
 
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Update:

I started the car in neutral, put the parking brake on and attempted to put it into reverse. No go. Still just as bad.

Next, I put it in first gear, with the brake off and the clutch fully depressed. The tires rotated considerably and were difficult to stop.

I then cranked down the stop bolt onto the clutch fork lever so that it was dramatically pushing in the TO bearing before I even pressed on the clutch pedal, then I pressed the pedal to the floor and started it up in gear.
This is the result. A little easier to stop the rotation, but not much:




Here is the sound the trans makes when I try to get it into gear. Of course, my other daughter Kristen (Amanda's twin) had to have a little fun with the video just like her sister did a few days ago...



So, I think that it seems to just not pull the plates apart enough to fully release the pressure on the friction disc, but cant figure out why...

Help!
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:12 PM
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1mm.. I didn't know it was supposed to be that much.
I adjusted mine so you can just feel a little clearance and then tighten it. Mines probably around .015 to .020 or something a little less than a half mm.
Anyway, it works fine.
Old 05-14-2015, 02:30 PM
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Years ago I bought a 1978 930 that the previous owner put a clutch in at home (he said he was handy with VW's ~ really!).

Anyhow he installed the throw out bearing incorrectly & this same condition was present. He even told me "yeah I did something wrong". Now I am not saying you did, but as you know the T.O. bearing goes in a handful of ways, only one correct.

The pedal felt like crap on that '78 but I took it to Road America like that anyhow. I got about two laps until the clutch arm disengaged from the improperly installed T.O. bearing.

Nevertheless I drove that car home (four hours) without said clutch. Only stopped once at a toll booth.

Moral of the story? I dunno ~ check the T.O. bearing.
Old 05-14-2015, 02:36 PM
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Jeff, have you gotten under the car (with it not running, of course) and had one of your daughters press the clutch pedal so you can eyeball what is going on with the release bearing mechanism and so forth? Am curious as to what you see there.

If it were mine, and I was convinced that everything was right with the clutch adjustment(s), I would try the operation with the car on the ground, and if nothing changed with the problem(s), would kick myself in the balls and then proceed to do an engine/gearbox, do-over drop (have been there, unfortunately).

Last edited by Ronnie's.930; 05-14-2015 at 02:46 PM..
Old 05-14-2015, 02:41 PM
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Michael - very interesting. Can you explain exactly what was wrong with your TO bearing install? Of course, I think I did it correctly, but I will definitely go back to the manual to make sure what I think is correct is actually correct. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:42 PM
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Michael - Thanks for the tip.
Old 05-14-2015, 02:43 PM
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I thought it didn't count if it was just the tip...
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:45 PM
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^^^ That all depends on the specifics of "the tip"!
Old 05-14-2015, 02:47 PM
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1mm.. I didn't know it was supposed to be that much.
I adjusted mine so you can just feel a little clearance and then tighten it. Mines probably around .015 to .020 or something a little less than a half mm.
Anyway, it works fine.
Yeah, I'm of the same mind as you. As long as there is some gap between the bolt and the lever, there is no pressure on the TO bearing so it should be fine. I was just following the directions precisely while trying to figure this clutch out.
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Old 05-14-2015, 02:49 PM
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If I recall correctly the incorrect installation made it so the clutch adjustment was whack. I believe there was no option but to have the clutch arm wedged against the adjustment. So if you have a nice factory like adjustment then the possibility of it being incorrect is limited.

I am trying to remember exactly what the yah-bo did... But all the "tip" statements above have my mind all messed up :/ & it was so long ago. It had something to do with the way he did NOT engage the bearing on istall... Or maybe it was backwards.
Old 05-14-2015, 03:04 PM
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I just went threw same problem with my clutch. Check out post under 915 clutch mystery in 911 tech forum. I put every thing new like after just rebuilding motor and 915 trans. Did all the proper adjustments and still couldnt get it into gear and also heard a grinding noise when i push pedal all the way down. I finally fix problem. I felt like an idiot. All it was that i forgot to put back the foot board behind pedals. I was going to far down on pedal. Put board and readjusted clutch and everythings fine shifts like butter. I hope this helps. Good luck
Old 05-14-2015, 06:24 PM
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Hmm. I do have the floorboard on, but I never tried less travel on the clutch cable. I'll try that tonight.

Thanks
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Old 05-14-2015, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff NJ View Post
Update:I started the car in neutral, put the parking brake on and attempted to put it into reverse. No go. Still just as bad.

Next, I put it in first gear, with the brake off and the clutch fully depressed. The tires rotated considerably and were difficult to stop.
This is starting to piss me off. A couple stuuupid questions, so don't take offense. Do your parking brakes "hook 'em up" well enough and did they completely stop the rotation of the tires when not in gear on the jack stands? And did you try the same scenario (brake on) when attempting 1st gear? Not clear from your post.

My thoughts, lame as they may be, not being even close to a tranny expert. Those gears need to stop turning; that's what the dogs and sliders and such mysterious inner makings of the tranny are designed to do in concert with the oil....slow things down to allow the gears to mesh. That's why these cars require a little timed pause when shifting and don't do well if we try to bang the gears.

When you have the car on stands, the wheels will always turn slowly even in neutral and the gears will never be at rest. I have no idea and have never started my car with the wheels off the ground, but who's to say that I also wouldn't be able to find any gears if I were to mimic what you're doing?

Sheet mahn, if only it were that simple.

And one more thought: Could we be chasing something that has nothing to do with the clutch? Are you certain you adjusted the shift throw correctly with the new Wevo coupler? I can remember once where I could not get reverse (major grindage action, not good when you're parked nose-in on a slope). Turned out the set screw was loose. Dry shifting without the engine running doesn't cut it diagnostically speaking.
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Last edited by mark houghton; 05-14-2015 at 08:07 PM..
Old 05-14-2015, 08:01 PM
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I forgot to mention. I also have my car up on jack stands. The right rear tire spins freely in neutral.
Old 05-14-2015, 08:09 PM
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Hey there Jeff,

I pulled my receipt from Turbocraft and this is as follows for my '84 930.

1. Lightweight Sachs clutch pressure plate for '76-'77.
2. Clutch disc. w/spring hub disc. for '76-'88.
3. Ring gear spacer for 3.3L using "flat" pressure plate + release bearing extension.
4. Release bearing extension, billet stainless steel.
5. Release bearing for '78-'88 {930.116.080.80}.
6. New pressure plate & flywheel bolts, new "O"rings, new main seal, new "3-bolt"pilot bearing.
7. New O.E.M. flywheel.

All bolted right up and simply works perfectly.

The photo of the release bearing in the pressure plate appears to be correctly installed...but is it the correct release bearing????

Mark
Old 05-14-2015, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
This is starting to piss me off. A couple stuuupid questions, so don't take offense. Do your parking brakes "hook 'em up" well enough and did they completely stop the rotation of the tires when not in gear on the jack stands? And did you try the same scenario (brake on) when attempting 1st gear? Not clear from your post.
I'm looking for help, and you cant offend me, so fire away! Yes, my parking brake fully stops the wheels when applied. When it is in neutral, they don't turn at all even with the brake off and with the brake on and in gear with the clutch in, they stop the wheels. When the wheels are stopped and the shifter is in neutral, I cannot get the reverse gears to mesh. They are definitely being turned by the motor, through the flywheel and clutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
My thoughts, lame as they may be, not being even close to a tranny expert. Those gears need to stop turning; that's what the dogs and sliders and such mysterious inner makings of the tranny are designed to do in concert with the oil....slow things down to allow the gears to mesh. That's why these cars require a little timed pause when shifting and don't do well if we try to bang the gears.

When you have the car on stands, the wheels will always turn slowly even in neutral and the gears will never be at rest. I have no idea and have never started my car with the wheels off the ground, but who's to say that I also wouldn't be able to find any gears if I were to mimic what you're doing?

Sheet mahn, if only it were that simple.

And one more thought: Could we be chasing something that has nothing to do with the clutch? Are you certain you adjusted the shift throw correctly with the new Wevo coupler? I can remember once where I could not get reverse (major grindage action, not good when you're parked nose-in on a slope). Turned out the set screw was loose. Dry shifting without the engine running doesn't cut it diagnostically speaking.
Yes, I am pretty certain that the shifter is set correctly. But even if it wasn't, how would that cause grinding in reverse? Assuming it is on the correct plane from left to right (because the forward gears go in correctly), when I move the shifter to the left enough, and then push forward, even if the coupler was on incorrectly (too far forward or rearward), it would have nothing to do with those gears spinning, would it? How would the shifter being too far forward or back cause grinding? If it was too far left or right, then maybe there is something to that, but I did just try moving it to the left and right and it didn't help. I appreciate the thoughts. Keep them coming!
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:55 PM
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I forgot to mention. I also have my car up on jack stands. The right rear tire spins freely in neutral.
If you start it, put it in first and keep the clutch all the way to the floor, how hard is it to stop the wheels? I used a 2x2 piece of wood and put it between the clutch pedal and the metal frame at the front of the seat and then moved the seat forward with the electronic seat motors until it is up against the stop, then started the car with it in gear, then went and grabbed the wheel and it took force to stop it and it would start right back up as soon as I let go. See the video a few posts above. I have nothing to compare against for the force it takes me to stop the wheels.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:00 PM
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. . . but I did just try moving it to the left and right and it didn't help.
Jeff, are you talking about errrrr, ummmm, "the tip" again?!?!

PS - wish I could point you in the direction of a "smoking gun" (no, not THAT gun) - very strange problem you've got going on over thar!
Old 05-14-2015, 09:02 PM
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The photo of the release bearing in the pressure plate appears to be correctly installed...but is it the correct release bearing????
In the photo it sure looks like it might be longer than a stock release bearing. If it's longer the fingers on the release fork might not be able to pull back far enough to, well, release things.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by full quack View Post
Hey there Jeff,

I pulled my receipt from Turbocraft and this is as follows for my '84 930.

1. Lightweight Sachs clutch pressure plate for '76-'77.
2. Clutch disc. w/spring hub disc. for '76-'88.
3. Ring gear spacer for 3.3L using "flat" pressure plate + release bearing extension.
4. Release bearing extension, billet stainless steel.
5. Release bearing for '78-'88 {930.116.080.80}.
6. New pressure plate & flywheel bolts, new "O"rings, new main seal, new "3-bolt"pilot bearing.
7. New O.E.M. flywheel.

All bolted right up and simply works perfectly.

The photo of the release bearing in the pressure plate appears to be correctly installed...but is it the correct release bearing????

Mark
Yes, that is what I got, except I resurfaced my flywheel. How would I know if it was the correct release bearing? What would be the difference if it was wrong? I did ask Chris if it was possible that the wrong parts were sent and he said he was sure they were correct for my car. I guess parts could be defective (warped, bad bearing, etc.), but boy would that be bad luck, huh?

I keep going back to the fact that my old clutch did the EXACT same thing. I am thinking that whatever is wrong destroyed my old friction disc due to dragging and it isn't fixed, whatever it is.

I nearly resigned to pulling the motor this weekend...
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:17 PM
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